Where Is God When Things Don’t Make Sense? (Part 2 • Episode 56)

Brent and his son Preston, pastor of Sacrament Church in Nashville, Tennessee, continue their discussion on the questions people have in the middle of difficult circumstances and the struggles we have in understanding where God is in the midst of suffering.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

This podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Transcript:

Welcome to Life and Love Nuggets, where licensed therapist Brent and Janice Sharpe share how you can thrive in your life, your love, and your relationships. Welcome back to Life and Love Nuggets. If you were with us last time, my son Preston is joining us for another time here. And we've been talking about some of these just really difficult questions that people had.

First of all, welcome. Thank you for being here. How do you like Nashville, by the way? You've been there for 10 years. Oh, well, I guess I like it because I'm there so long now.

We love it. It's great. And we love it here. We're from Tulsa, Oklahoma, of course, where you guys live. We love Tulsa.

Always love coming back. But Nashville's starting to feel more and more like home.

So we enjoy it. I'm glad you like it. You do know that you have two of our grandchildren with you. That's right.

That are way away from us. Yeah. It's a nine hour drive away. Yeah, yeah. So that's not so happy, but I know that there was a lot of purpose in what you're doing there. And so again, we try to have fun thoughts about Nashville.

Good, good, good. No, but we love what you're doing.

And it's such a healthy, vibrant church there and called Sacrament. And it's just a beautiful thing to see what God's doing there. So the reason I wanted Preston to join us again here is we've been talking about some of these difficult questions that you've been pastoring for 20 years. Janice and I have been doing this stuff for 40 years or so. And we just get these questions that people ask that shows us that there's some misunderstanding, we think, that they have about God and who God is and how God works in the world that can lead to some difficulties, whether that's fear, confusion, causing them to kind of pull back from God, not be able to trust God. Yeah. Or give up on God. You know, well, if he's letting this happen, certainly can't be good, you know, or must not even really be there, you know, because I pray and nothing seems to happen and all those kind of things. And so we've talked about a few of these questions that things like, if I'm a Christian, I shouldn't feel depressed, I shouldn't feel negative feelings.

Gosh, one that's so difficult, why is God letting this happen to me? Then because bad things are happening, I must be doing something wrong or I must be in sin in some way. And then I have people, almost every day, go, I know it's wrong to feel whatever they feel, to feel anger or to feel frustrated or depressed or whatever, somehow that that's wrong, they feel. If God's good, why does so much bad happen in the world? And if he came and was resurrected and made all things new, then why are things not looking new? And so those are some of the questions that we've been trying to address. And when people go through difficulty, one of the places that I oftentimes encourage them to go is to the Psalms.

I'll call it the songbook of the church, right? And, but there's all kinds of them, there's 150 of them. There's all kinds of them and different kinds, but one of the biggest subsets of the Psalms is what we call the lamenting Psalms. It's where the writers and those that are scripting this are, boy, it's sometimes really confused, you know?

They're like, God, where are you? Have you gone to sleep on me, you know? And they're asking these kinds of questions of God and it's, you know, and so we read this. And first of all, I think it helps us know, oh, there's other people that are asking these questions. Matter of fact, I think it gives us this picture that there's somebody somewhere every second of the day asking these same very questions. And I think it also helps us to know because sometimes I think those things. And so, but I think the way it's communicated and we look, okay, this is scripture. So we look into, well, if they're asking this kind of a question, then this must be how it works.

I think that's the confusion. So one, just as an example here, one Psalm 88. It goes and says, oh Lord, God of my salvation, when at night I cry out in your presence, let my prayer come before you, incline your ear to my cry. That all sounds good, you know, Lord hear me. For my soul is full of troubles and my life draws near to Sheol. And so obviously they're feeling depression, they're feeling fear, they're feeling discouragement, anxiety, I am counted among those who go down to the pit. I am like those who have no help, like those forsaken among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more. And so then we start hearing something a little different, for they are cut off from your hand.

You have put me in the depths of the pit. Yeah, yeah. No wonder people think, well God does all this. Right. In the regions dark and deep, your wrath lies heavy upon me and you overwhelm me with all your waves. You have caused my companions to shun me, my spouse to leave me, that car accident, whatever. You have made me a thing of horror to them. I am shut in so that I cannot escape. My eye grows dim through sorrow. Every day I call to you, oh Lord, I spread out my hands to you. But I, oh Lord, cry out to you in the morning, my prayer comes before you.

Oh Lord, why do you cast me off? Why do you hide your face from me? Wretched and close to death from my youth up, I suffer your terrors, I suffer your terrors.

I am desperate, your wrath. Yeah, goodness. Swept over me, your dread assaults destroy me. They surround me like a flood all day long.

From all sides they close in on me. You have caused friend and neighbor to shun me. My companions are in darkness. Well no wonder people think that, this is scripture, this is what we've read.

Then it's like, well, okay, that means God does all this. Can you fix that? No. Why do we think this? Well, a few things about this psalm. First of all, I think what this does for us is this affirms in us that the feelings that we feel, those experiences that we go through and how we think about God and all of those things, there's something really normal about that. That yes, of course you feel this way. I mean, in the midst of pain and sorrow and rejection, of course you would feel this kind of thing. The other thing I think it shows us is it reminds us that we're invited to say those things to God.

Yeah, that's so good. That our God is close enough. He's not freaked out over this, obviously, right? Exactly, close enough and loving enough, more loving than we could ever possibly imagine, that he invites us into that kind of argumentation and yelling and frustration, and then it's called scripture.

I mean, it's just absolutely beautiful. The other thing I think we see in this is ancient peoples, whether it's Jewish or Christian or pagan or whatever it is, tended to see everything that happened in the world as coming from the gods. So because part of it is, a lot of this is good because in our world today, you talked about control earlier, we tend to think about ourselves as so much in control that we can't really do anything ourselves and make things happen and all that kind of stuff. But in the ancient world, everything that happened, the weather, the personal hardships, all that stuff was a gift from the God, you know, positive or negative, whether, again, pagan gods or whatever it was. So that's some of the language that's being used here is I have no other resources from which this could come, so this must be from you, and that's how I'm saying it. Now, of course, we realize that the world is chaotic, it's messy, I think these writers even knew that. They knew that there were other factors and other things, and yet God steps in and says, it's okay for you to blame me for this. It's okay for you to yell at me.

He's not nervous about that, right? Exactly, and I'll take that upon myself, and that's actually a sign of God's grace, I think. That's beautiful.

And so they, that's the only thing that they could think at the time, and as the world's gone on and we've developed, it seems like that we move more and more towards trying to be in charge and trying to control it, and so, well, God can't even be involved in any of this, you know, so this is all just something that happened, happenstance, and we are like little gods, and we can be our own god, basically, which I think is, it's where the beginning of difficulty starts, where we think we can actually be in control, and we can make everything go a certain way, and even control, you know, our physical, we can live longer, and control, you know, maybe we can become, you know, our own live forever, you know, through science or whatever, and so, so again, it just kind of shows some of the swing in that, and it is so good to understand that this is, that God's comfortable with this, that he invites us to ask these questions, and I think it's in that many of the psalms that David wrote kind of start out this way, and then usually by the end of that particular psalm, it's okay, it's because of your infinite wisdom, or it's because of this, so he comes to some resolution, it seems like, a little bit. I don't think he would have ever gotten there if he hadn't had that freedom to just fuss. This kind of thing that we call lament is actually a sign of relationship, so the fact that the psalmist is in relationship with God, they can have that kind of encounter.

You know, in marriage counseling, you've talked about it all the time, conflict is inevitable in a marriage. There's gonna be conflict. In fact, if there's no conflict at all, it might be a sign that there's no relationship. So conflict is necessary, and it's important, so this is a sign of one who goes, God, I know you're trustworthy, I know you're good, you brought my people through this, you brought me through this, so why is this happening? And that is this sign of a deep and passionate relationship, and then the fact that God receives that, takes it upon himself, is a sign of God's great love. Yeah. And so it is that invitation, and I think that is where we find God's presence. Yes. People are always saying, well, where is God? And I always encourage people to go, well, go to the difficulty you're facing.

It's in that that you're gonna find God. That's right. Now again, that doesn't mean that, well, we should all just try to suffer more. Yeah. But it's somewhere in that, it's wrestling with that. And God, as you said, is fine with us fussing with him. Yes. And so he doesn't look at us and go, well, what's wrong with you? Yeah. And so, matter of fact, I mean, if you look at the whole scriptural story, I mean, I hear people, even theological frameworks that are just, they don't wanna talk about anything difficult. Right. And let's not speak about that, we just believe this. Right. And so, and I think it's so limiting, it so hinders people's full experience.

And so, the ability to be able to just be real and honest and open, again, mentioned before that God knows the beginning and the end of all things and he knows we don't know what's gonna happen five minutes from now. He wants us to bring that fear, anxiety, stress to him. And somehow in that, we connect. That's right. At deeper levels. And eventually we find a pathway through.

That's so right. And we've been talking about this from the perspective of one who's facing suffering or experiencing suffering. There's another layer to this of looking around at your life and at your world and seeing where suffering is present and then going to it. This is for those who are helpers or those who step into the pain of another person and feel that empathy and that experience with them. One of the things you'll find, we're talking about God's presence is there.

When you go there, you'll experience God's presence. I've talked to so many people that they go, gosh, when I stepped in that pain or I served those people, God was really there. And then in God's beautiful way, you also become, in some sense, God's presence for them.

So it kind of goes both ways. And it's like because God is always found in the midst of suffering.

Yeah, that's so good. As I read the whole scriptural story, when I hear people trying to come up with the formula for a good living, what are the five steps to your best life or whatever? And so when I look at the whole scriptural story, I mean, pretty much every character is going through some difficulty.

I mean, every one of them, right? And even Hebrews 11, the great faith chapter. Well, they needed great faith in the midst of suffering. It was they were going through horrible circumstances and it was in that that God worked them through that. And so I always tell people, if we can just bring our real, honest, open selves to God. That's right. He always makes room for transformation. He always makes room for new beginnings, new lives, something through that. But one of the biggest challenges is when we don't feel like we can be honest.

We don't bring our real self. And so we just think, oh, I can only think this. I've talked to a lot of people and their thought of even talking to God, like the psalmist, oh, they'd like shudder. No, I can't talk to God like that, you know? I need to, when I go to God, I need to be ready and full of faith and believing. He does not expect this. That's right. He wants us to bring our full, open selves to each other. And that's why, again, I don't wanna overdo it, but why being safe people to others is so important, to allow them to bring their real, honest, true selves to bear at that moment. That's why I think when someone comes to you and is in pain and you feel uncomfortable, because we all sometimes feel uncomfortable.

I don't know what to say. I don't know the right words. If you can just say, I'm so sorry, and I want you to know I'm here. That can just speak, or a hug if it's appropriate. Those kind of things can speak so much because that's really that presence. So, another thing that people think about is that if I do all the right things, then good will happen. And then there seems to be people, bad people in life that actually seems like they have good things.

What do we make of that? Well, and maybe I'm on a fringe here, so feel free, if you guys disagree with me, it's totally fine. I am prone to say in this world, there's no correlation. Between good things that happen to good people and bad things, there is just no correlation. We live in too messy of a world. We live in a world that's so broken that sometimes in order to get ahead in this world, you actually have to do some shady things.

It's just the way kind of the world works. And so, our focus often should not be to try to make a good outcome happen. It should be to be faithful to who God is, which we see Paul, the Apostle Paul, says that there are three things that will ultimately remain in the world, faith, hope, and love, and the greatest is love. So, that which we cling onto, that's faith, which is trusting in God. That which is hopeful, that says things are going to be right, that there will be justice and truth and goodness in the world. And then ultimately, love, that which we can lay down our lives for others and care for others in ways that reflect Jesus. Then that, those are the things that we should hold onto. And I think focusing on kind of these outcomes of like, you know, I'm even suspicious of those stories that'll often go, well, yeah, you know, I gave my life to God. I gave my life to Jesus, and then all of a sudden I became a millionaire.

Well, give thanks for what God has given you. That's wonderful. And let's make that really clear. When blessings happen, it's not like we're just laissez-faire about that. We should say, Lord, thank you for these blessings. All good comes from Him. Exactly. All good things come from Him. But to try to formulize it, and in fact, that's really probably where we should put the marker. It's really all trusting in God, not in ourselves. So if we were to say, well, I started living virtuously, and then all these good things happened, we're giving ourselves the credit.

We need to be able to say, no, it's actually God who gives us all these blessings. The best testimony, I think, is, man, I was living real squirrelly, but God blessed me. You know, that's a sign of God's goodness. So I just, I think we need to avoid those formulas altogether.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, the scripture talks about the rain falls on the just and the unjust. And so there's gonna be blessings, because the reality is, He loves all of His people. That's right. Whether they're living for Him or not. That's right.

He still loves them. Yes. And again, whether a million dollars is fully a blessing or not, for some people that's a curse. Oh, exactly.

That actually harms them. Yes. Yes. But it's any good thing in our life, you know? And if we see people that don't really care about God and serve Him, but still have good experiences in their marriage or family life or business or whatever, then thank God for that, you know? And so, but I think people get confused as, well, why? I know that person, you know, isn't really, is shady in business, and yet they make a lot of money, you know? That's why partly I've even changed my kind of language, because people talk about, oh, that person's so successful, because they make a lot of money. Well, I know a lot of people that make a lot of money that are miserable or that, you know, they've gone through all kind of messes.

And so I just say, no, that person makes a lot of money. Yes. Yes. That's, yeah, exactly. And so, but anyway, it's just recognizing that God loves all of His people. Yes. And so if there's good that happens anywhere in the world, it's because of Him. Yes. And that's what we think. They're thankful. And yet, we live in a broken world that being a Christian doesn't mean that you're gonna have less bad things happen and only good.

It just means that you can count on Jesus being with you. That's right. In that moment. And another way to say that, I think, would be it's, it is appropriate to call the good things truly good. And it is appropriate to call the bad things truly bad. So one thing when we go through suffering or go through difficulties, one of the things we tend to do is to kind of go, oh, well, it's not really that bad.

Or other people will say that to us. Oh, that's not really. Yeah. Well, you know, it's not that bad.

At least this kind of thing happened. But no, it's okay to look at those bad things and go, oh, this is really bad.

This is really hard. And I need to sit with this and grieve this for a while. Now there may be some times, I think Nicholas Wolterstorff was saying that there are some times in our life where we do need to be reminded, hey, it's not so bad. But then there's also those things like death, grief, grief of loss, that is always truly bad. That's sad.

It's always really hard. So reminding that. And then the good things. When there's good things that happen, we have this discipline of gratefulness, thankfulness in the Christian life where we consistently go, I'm so thankful for all that God has given me in this. And I do think that helps us, that helps us calibrate our lives.

That's so good. So it's trusting God in the midst of all circumstances. The, you know, we want to encourage people that wherever they find themselves good, difficult is that God is there. And I know when people are going through difficulties, I tell people all this quite a bit, and I'm not sure what they think about it, but if I have somebody in tears, which, you know, counselor and pastor that we should have stock in Kleenex, I often say, you know, heaven's crying with you right now. And I think people get a little confused about that. Well, heaven's crying about this, why didn't heaven keep this from happening?

Why didn't it make it stop or change it? And again, we're not here to answer all those questions. But we do live in a world that is broken, you know, it is, you know, we talk about resurrection as it's already not yet, you know, there's a new life, a new beginning, but we don't yet fully live in that. And so this side of eternity, we're going to live in difficulties and, but God has again committed to not take away all the difficulties, but to be present in the midst of those. And so when you're crying, when you're fearful, when you're anxious, God gets that, He feels that and He's right next to you. He's present with you to sustain you, to strengthen you, sometimes to clarify it, sometimes to give you some answers, you know.

You guys ended up finding a really cool car. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, you got to pay for it. Yeah, sure. But it's a, God, there's a good ending, you know, to that. You weren't planning on it, you know, and it feels a little bit like a stretch or whatever, but again, God has a way to somehow be with you in those moments. Sometimes the car doesn't get replaced and we go through some hardship, but He's committed and present in those circumstances as well. And so one of the things we're trying to say and one of the things we find in our own experience with people is trust the real feelings of human experience. And so if you feel some depression or anxiety or fear or depression, anger, whatever those feelings are, just know that God created you to have these feelings and bring those real honest feelings to Him and to others that you can feel safe with.

We always say that if you can't feel it, you can't fix it. And so we, I think we live in a lot of denial where we try to just push those things away and just try to, well, I'm not even going to let myself feel that.

I'm just going to think this, you know. And I'm not saying that there's not times for that's appropriate to believe or to think, you know, that something, you know, God can still do this or that. We're not saying just sit in your feelings and never, you know, but by bringing them to bear, bringing them honestly to God, He has a way to move through those things. He allows you to feel it and experience it to its strongest experience, but has a way for you to move through that.

And we find that that's the healthiest place. I think there's some things in scripture that sometimes we misunderstand. So one of them is thinking that if we just kind of live a life of faith, then we won't have to ever experience things like depression or anxiety. I think about Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane when He asks the Father to take this cup from me. And it says that He's actually sweating drops of blood, which is anxiety.

I mean, like extreme anxiety. And that is a, that is not lack of trust in God. In fact, the reason why He's feeling that way is because He does trust God. He is trusting the Father in the Father's will in His life. And so there's going to be times in life where we experience these kinds of things. And the good news is that God is with us in the midst of them. It's not that, oh man, you better get better or pretend it doesn't exist.

No, God is present. God is with us.

The other thing is in the New Testament, there's some verses like, cast all your cares upon me or cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you. There's even some that translate cast all your anxiety. Well, some will read that as going, oh, or be anxious for nothing. That's another one.

Like, well, don't be anxious. Don't be anxious. Yeah. Don't have anxiety. Well, that's not talking about the anxiety disorders that we face in life sometimes or the feelings of anxiety that we experience. What it's saying is that you are invited to trust in God. It's not saying your feelings should all be caught up with all that. It's saying, no, you can act in such a way that you trust in God, that He ultimately has your good in mind.

I think that's so critical to remember. We're going to feel all kinds of things in this life, and we're going to experience all kinds of things in this life, and it's God's presence with us that we can be reminded of.

That's our true hope. We also trust, as Christians, we do hope for that day when all is made right, when all is restored. God's presence with us now is kind of like a glimpse into that, or it's that future world in the present in our lives right here and right now. Sometimes it may be helpful to think of it as like a loving parent who is with you. Those of us who are parents and we have kids, when our kids are sick, we want to take that pain away. We want to sit with them, and we feel that grief and that pain with them.

Now, of course, there's a difference because God is all-powerful. We're not all-powerful, right? I think it can be helpful to think of God that way. God is sitting with you and holding you and grieving with you and doing everything for you that you need in that moment. Yeah, and as parents, we wouldn't say, stop feeling that. Exactly. We would just, I'm so sorry.

Yes, that's right. And we would sit with them until they get better. That's right. And so God's not chastening us for going through real human experience.

He knows how He designed us. He designed us to be dependent, limited humans. That's how we're created, and somehow we try to become not limited and not dependent, and we want to be our own God, in essence. And so wherever you find yourself in this discussion, certainly know the bottom line is that nothing can separate you from the love of God, that He loves you, you are created in His image, you are His beloved, He loves you deeply. He understands every little thing you're, every little, everything, every little and big thing that you're going through, and He is committed to be present. And that has nothing to do with how good you are, how perfect you are, whether you've messed up or not, has nothing to do with what circumstances you're going through. He is absolutely committed to you and will be with you always, that, again, nothing can separate you from His love.

So know that, hold on to that, trust in that. Thank you, Preston, for hanging out a little bit with me and sharing some things about some of these really challenging, difficult questions and difficult reality that we face. So for now, go in peace, blessings as you go. The Life & Love Nuggets podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.