Productive Guidelines for Healthy Conversations: Issue Resolution Part 2 (Episode 23)

Brent and Janis continue with keys to resolving issues in relationships, the benefit of valuing our differences, and present healthy guidelines for managing conflict.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

This podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Fear Cycle - Dance Steps

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Transcript:

[Brent]: Welcome back, friends, to Life & Love Nuggets. We’re glad that you’re with us today. We have been talking about for continuing a series on issue resolution. All couples have conflict sometimes.

[Janis]: [Unintelligible] amazing, isn’t it?

[Brent]: Now, of course, we don't probably see that in the culture anymore.

[Janis]: Well, and we definitely don't in our marriage counseling.

[Brent]: Oh, no. Everybody gets along with each other swimmingly.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: And it’s so easy, you know? Because if we marry the right person, then it's magic and we just connect easily and we get along and we understand each other completely and we don't have misunderstandings.

[Janis]: That sounds like you've been with premarital couples too much.

[Brent]: Exactly, exactly.

[Janis]: Our life is different.

[Brent]: Yeah. We always say that in marriage counseling we need like, two couches, you know? Because sometimes they don't want to sit on the same couch. In premarital counseling, all we need is like, a big oversized chair.

[Janis]: Yes.

[Brent]: Because they want to sit really, really close to each other.

[Janis]: And they're constantly touching each other, stroking each other's hair.

[Brent]: It's a beautiful thing, but that's not real-life long term and so, we believe that this idea of difference is actually a good thing, that God designed us to be drawn to somebody that is different than we are. If you're working in a work environment, you need people that have different kind of skill sets, we don't need all the same thing, and yet, everybody's going to see things differently and so, we believe that God is not surprised that we have conflict, you know? We think that he's the one that kind of designed the idea of the power of synergy, where power of the team is greater than the power of the individual parts and so, it's not a surprise that we have this, but I think we have no clue how to actually manage these things and I think God had a whole different way for us in mind, you know? In his mind on how we would process these differences and blend our differences and find a place of unity, and all of that magical stuff that is not easy

[Janis]: Because when we really value each other's differences, then we're like “oh, you see it that way? Okay, there must be some merit in that. How do we work together with such different opinions or different views and be fascinated with that instead of irritated?”

[Brent]: Yeah. Fascinated rather than frustrated, absolutely.

[Janis]: Yes. Oh yes.

[Brent]: Right? And so, we started last time talking about this idea of a dance step. This way that we see this in married couples, but we see it really in all relationships of significance, where we kind of come into the relationship with a set of emotional bruises. We all have this in life, and there's just a place where our bruises bump into each other and those conversations don't go well, and we talked about how do we break out of that and not let that rule the day and how our brain, even our amygdala, goes into fight or flight and if we try to have a conversation in those moments where we're triggered, it's just never going to go well and so, this comes from some research.

[Janis]: Yes. Yes, it's research. I can't remember the name right now, but it's based on basically the attachment theory.

[Brent]: Attachment theory.

[Janis]: I know, I was trying to remember the official name. There was a model that was developed years ago and it was based roughly on attachment theory and a couple of other theories, that really show that we come into a relationship and we do have those bruises.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, today we're going to continue, because we said we need to have a safe word that we can break out of the unproductive way and we need at least 30 minutes to an hour to be able to come back, and we've been alluding to this three step process on actually how you would actually talk through whatever hit your bruise in the first place, how you would actually resolve that in an effective way that blends our lives together and so, we're leading up to that, where we're going to give you kind of this strategy on how to actually talk through a thing and we also suggested that we don't have to wait until we get in a bad conversation to do the three steps. Eventually we want to be able to go right to that. That creates safety, emotional safety and security in the relationship, where we can still deal with the fact that we don't see things the same way or you've done something that's really hurt me and how do we actually resolve those issues.

[Janis]: And as you said, we can bring up things that might be a difficult conversation but in a safe structure.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, we're going to just real quickly look at the ways that-- General ways that people, kind of different personalities try to deal with conflict and we found there's a few of these that kind of everybody does in our culture, they just don't work and we're going to kind of describe those a little bit. We all find ourselves in these because this is what makes the world go round and we're not saying that you're all one or the other, but we tend to approach conflict from these different vantage points.

[Janis]: And we can be one in one relationship and another one in another relationship. So, sometimes we're passive at home, but we might be aggressive at work. So, that leads me into let's talk about people who resolve issues or approach issues passively.

[Janis]: Passive people don't say what they think or feel. This is those people that you go “well, do you want to do so and so?” And they're like “I don't care, it's up to you”. “Well, what do you think about this?”; “You know, I just don't have any thoughts. It's whatever you want”. So, they don't say what they think or feel. Passive people in conflict are willing to lose, if necessary, because they just want everybody to get along. They just want things to be peaceful, so they keep things calm by not saying their opinions.

[Janis]: Sometimes I've actually seen passive people lie in order to-- Because somebody may say “hey, do you want to go here or here?” and they go “sure, I can do that”. When they actually hate it and they don't want to do it.

[Brent]: They just go along with it.

[Janis]: But they just want to have peace in their relationships and this is where we get into people who are pleasers. I remember the-- I think it's by Kevin Leman, an old book called The Pleasers, that was written probably in the 80s and it was really dealing with-- Especially women at that time, that were stuffing all of their feelings. So, it's easy as a passive person to be a pleaser and if you go to the extreme of that, it becomes codependency and that's the idea of “I'm going to do everything for you and I'm going to treat you wonderfully well, with the assumption that if I make you happy, you'll do what I want and make me happy”. That generally doesn't happen.

[Brent]: Usually doesn't work.

[Janis]: But that's the hope that's there.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, it is an attempt to get needs met. It’s “if I just please you enough, you'll be happy, you'll be in a good mood, then you'll treat me nice, then I'll be happy”. These folks we find oftentimes years into the relationship wake up not happy. “I’ve just been-- I've lost myself. I don't know who I am” and oftentimes when they come to marriage counseling, the spouse is like “what? I thought things were fine”.

[Janis]: Yes.

[Brent]: And they really are blindsided because the person has really not spoken up and be honest.

[Janis]: That's right. I often see that at 20 years of marriage.

[Brent]: Interesting.

[Janis]: I have women that will come in and go “I'm done” and it's because they've stuffed it and stuffed it and stuffed it. But again, the spouse is completely blindsided because like, “we have the happiest marriage of anyone I know”.

[Brent]: Right

[Janis]: Because she's been swallowing her feelings and her opinion.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, if you could look at all this on a continuum. The passive is on the one extreme end and we are using a little bit of extreme language. You know, we're talking about the extremes of these. If you flip over to the other extreme, these folks are aggressive and they are not going to stuff anything. They are bluntly honest.

[Janis]: Even if you want them to, they won't.

[Brent]: Exactly. They are bluntly honest; they'll tell you exactly what they think and feel and they would be more than happy to tell you what you should think and feel.

[Janis]: They could really run the world if the rest of us would just go along with it.

[Brent]: Absolutely, absolutely. Losing is not in their vocabulary; they're going to try to win. Peace is not as important as proving their point. These people tend towards control

[Brent]: Now, it's going to look like this is a much stronger personality in the relationship, but my experience is that both of these come out of deep insecurities. These people deeply need their partner to treat them a certain way for them to be happy, but they're not just going to hope it happens, “I'm going to make sure it happens. I'm going to tell you how you need to act, and if you don't do it right, you're going to get in big trouble, and I'm going to stay on you until you do it right” and so, again, they're both trying to get needs met. They just come from two really radically opposite directions, and unfortunately, neither one of these actually work.

[Janis]: Right? And they're often married to each other.

[Brent]: Sometimes.

[Janis]: Yes, they are. The third one is passive-aggressive, and passive-aggressive is “okay, I can deal with that. Okay, that's okay, I can adapt to that. I can adapt to that. Okay, I'll go along with you and Matt. That's okay”. Until one day they've stuffed, and they've stuffed, and they've stuffed, and it's…

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: And all of a sudden, the family gets scared because somebody left a dish out and mom explodes or dad explodes, and it's like “where did that come from?”, and that person looks extremely irrational. But it's not that event, it's all the little things that have added up for days and weeks and years and decades, and all of a sudden, it all comes out.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: Now, usually what those people do is that the immediate situation is over, they quiet down, and they go back to the stuff it, stuff it, stuff it, stuff it.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Janis]: We call that the Popeye response.

[Brent]: Yeah, “I've had enough. I can't stand it anymore”.

[Janis]: But there's also underground passivity, and that is “I'm not going to tell you what made me mad; you should really know that. So, I'm just going to slam kitchen drawers or cabinet doors hard” or I'm just not going to talk to you, and you're going to say “what's wrong?”; “Nothing. I'm fine. It's no big deal”. So, they're trying to let you know they're not happy, but they won't directly come out and say what it is that makes them unhappy.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, you know, if they say anything, it's probably sarcastic.

[Janis]: Yes.

[Brent]: And you know, they'll huff around or you know, again, it’s--

[Janis]: “We’re joking”.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: Well, they say it's joking.

[Brent]: They say it's joking.

[Janis]: They say it's joking. “It's too bad you didn't have time to put the dishes in the dishwasher today” and if their spouse accepts that and says “oh, I'm sorry…”, then they're fine. But most of the time their spouse will go “what!?” and they'll get upset over it. Then the passive person will say “oh, I was just kidding”.

[Brent]: “I was just kidding”.

[Janis]: “It was just kidding”.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. So, I always ask couples “okay, where are you on this?”. We all find ourselves manifesting in one of these, because this is what makes the world go round. I mean, we were raised in families that do this kind of stuff. It's in movies and television all the time. There's some TV shows or movies that would literally have no plot if they didn't have a serious misunderstanding or some kind--.

[Janis]: Right. [Unintelligible] good communication and conflict resolution.

[Brent]: Yeah, it’ll be over in five minutes.

[Janis]: Most of our sitcoms would not be in existence.

[Brent]: Right, and so, we've all picked up some of these tendencies because we've not been trained well, and we found that trying these just doesn't work, but we keep slipping back into these over and over again. Now, we tell people, when you kind of identify yourself in this, there's no judgment here, there's no criticism here, but we've got to own that “okay, I'm probably doing something that's probably not the healthiest” and it's about, how do we develop a practice of a new habit? We don't change by criticizing unhealthy habits, we change by practicing new habits. So, I tell couples if they're really good tennis players and I was a tennis coach, which I'm not, but let's say I was a tennis pro and came out and watched you play tennis, and five minutes into it, it was like “whoa, that's a really bad swing” and I turn and walk away, this is not going to help us.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: It's only if it's like “hey, come here a second. Have you thought about holding your wrist a little bit more like this and stepping into your swing? Let's go practice that”. That's how we change, and that's what we're going to work on here.

[Janis]: And the really good news is our brains can change.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: It's what we've talked about before with neuroplasticity in our brain. If we form new habits and we repeat them over and over again, we actually not only change our behavior, but we're changing our brain.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: So, it's repeating healthy habits until that healthy groove gets deeper in the groove of the unhealthy way.

[Brent]: That's right. So, we've got to practice a new swing, and we've got to do it over and over and over again and so, we're going to be leading to that three-step process, okay? And that three-steps is based on a different style, which is what we call assertive, and what assertive looks like. First of all, assertive is open and honest. I tell all of our passive folks “we got to stop it. We got to stop stuffing everything”. Now, they get nervous about that, because the only way they've known how to manage any of this stuff is the old way and so, it freaks them out. But for passive people, the three steps will help them feel safe. That if I follow these three steps, it won't get crazy, it won't get messy, and we're actually going to be able to resolve this thing, and it will help them be more and more open because we've got to talk about stuff. I have some couples, I don't know about you, but said “gosh, we just don't really hardly fight”. You know, they come in for marriage counseling, they're not happy. “We don't fight much”. It's like, “well, that's not necessarily good. You're just not dealing with anything”.

[Janis]: You're not talking.

[Brent]: You’re not talking, right? And so, we've got to talk, okay?

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: So, we have to be open, and we have to be honest, but not bluntly honest. So, we're going to show couples how to be open and honest in a way that's not judgmental, it's not critical. I'm not coming across like I'm your parent or your teacher because all of those, they're very similar. All of those will get a fight or flight response from the partner. If we come across trying to parent our partner or critiquing them or judging them, they're going to shut down and run away or they're going to come back throwing stones and so, how do we do it without doing that? And then, we have to be open to listening. That's what the three steps requires, is that we actually hear each other, that we give opportunity for both sides to be able to communicate and so, we have to be able to listen. We're generally horrible listeners. We're more interested in what we have to say than what anybody else has to say and so, oftentimes partway in their sentence, they'll say something that, you know, we have a reaction to and then we stop listening and then we're talking on top of each other and so, we have to listen.

[Brent]: Because the ultimate resolution, the ultimate goal of assertiveness is a negotiated agreement. Now, negotiated suggests this is going to take some time, this is going to take some effort. You're not going to follow the three steps and by the end, go “oh my gosh, we now see it the same way”. Not going to happen. This is not magic. I don't think that's supposed to happen or God wouldn't have given us both a brain, right?

[Brent]: So, we're going to end up going “wow, we don't see this the same at all and it's going to take some work to pull our ships together”. So, this is going to take some effort, but if you can follow this structure, it can move you to a place of common ground, because that's what we're looking for. Because agreement doesn't mean that one of us has convinced the other one to see it your way.

[Janis]: Right.

[Brent]: It means somebody just caved there, okay? It just means that we've blended, we've collaborated, we found common ground.

[Janis]: And the beauty that we've seen over the years is that when they go through this process, even though they may go back and forth and back and forth, they come up with a solution that's better than either of their original ideas. They just get more creative because they have to, to stay within the model and so, we've seen couples walk out that are like “wow, we would never have thought about that, but that works for both of us”.

[Brent]: Yeah, absolutely. So, we're going to look at this and we're going to talk about a framework, what assertiveness looks like, and these three steps follow that path. But before we jump into the three steps, we looked at this many years ago, kind of sat down many years ago and talked about what were couples doing that was messing up, you know? That was keeping them from really being able to collaborate and we came up with ten things that couples were failing in, and we looked at our own professional training, we even looked at the scriptures on what would correct those things and so, we came up with what we call our top ten issue resolution guidelines. So, these are the basic foundational principles that we built this three-step procedure on.

[Brent]: So, we want to run over those real quick with you just so that you have this foundation. We're even going to look at the scripture on. So, this isn't just Brent and Janis Sharp philosophy on what gives a foundation for this.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: So, the first one, Ephesians talks about being completely humble and gentle. “Be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace”. So, the first guideline is we have to have these discussions to reach a solution, not gaining a victory.

[Brent]: Now, the reality is we all would like to win. I don't care what personality you have or what pathway you try to deal with conflict, we all would like to get our way because by the time of adulthood, the way we see the world we think is the accurate way. Now, if you agree with me, you're like, an incredibly bright person, I'd love to hang out with you, but the minute you disagree with me, I'm like “well, I think I'm right. You're different, you must be wrong and it's my job to help you see the light”. I mean, this is just human. But we tell couples every day that if you ever feel like you won an argument over your spouse, you just lost.

[Brent]: It has to be about win/win. We can't win over ourself in a marriage, it'd be like my right hand having a fight with my left hand. It just makes no sense, we're part of the same body. So, we're going to talk a lot about solution. It's about solution.

[Janis]: It's recognizing that we're one and we both have good things to bring to the table that are great for the relationship, even though that part of me goes “but if we just did it my way, it would be so much better”.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Janis]: We're not looking for victory, we're looking for solution.

[Brent]: Yeah, and some people confuse that thinking “well, that just means we've lost ourselves and we're meshed in each other”. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about two individuals that are fully alive, that fully represent who they are in the world, collaborating and finding common ground.

[Janis]: Which sounds like God.

[Brent]: It does.

[Janis]: Yeah. Okay, the next one is, “but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way”. That's 1Corinthians 14:40 and the guideline with that is discuss one thing at a time. We think we're doing that, but we so easily walk in and go “why didn't you take out the trash?”; “Well, I would have taken out the trash if I didn't have to clean up all these dishes in the kitchen”; “Well, you wouldn’t have had to clean up all those dishes in the kitchen if you had done that last night like I told you to”; “Well, I had to put the kids to bed last night” and so, we end up with five issues in just a minute.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: Literally, we can't ever solve five things at one time. You know, I tell my couples a lot that our conflicts a lot of times are like a bunch of necklaces or yarn that have all knotted together.

[Brent]: That’s good, yeah.

[Janis]: You can't just pull hard and it works, you have to take a little knot and untangle it and then another little knot and eventually, it all comes untangled. It looks too hard in the beginning, but it's a little-by-little process that works.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, the three steps, make sure we stay on point.

[Janis]: Yes.

[Brent]: Got to talk about this issue. Now, I tell people “Don’t be surprised if your partner brings up something that they're not happy with. You're going to think of other stuff, but you have to learn how to hold that. The next words out of your mouth can be, ‘hey, there's something I need to talk to you about now’. That's fine, but you've got to separate these conversations”.

[Janis]: We really have to guard ourselves when we have the thought of “oh yeah? Well, you--”

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: That's when we go “okay, halt. This is not going to be productive”.

[Brent]: Yeah, absolutely. The third one is Romans 12;10 says “be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves”. So, this guideline is you cannot refuse a discussion. If your partner asks you for a time to talk, you got to give them a time. Now, we're going to talk about timing and we're not saying you have to talk that second, but we do feel like there's a reasonable time that we have to be able to say “okay, I'm willing to come to the table”. It's just not okay to say “I don't want to talk about that” and never talk about it. If my partner has an issue, I have an issue.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: And so, I've got to be willing to come to the table.

[Janis]: If it's important to one of us, it's important to the relationship and so, it needs to be dealt with. The next one is, “if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with his spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit”. Selfishness is very common in marriage; we all have it. But in humility, consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not to your own interest, but also the interest of others and the guideline that we have with this is, if the discussion is a question of fact, then it's your duty to get the fact. The problem is, most of the time it's about opinion.

[Brent]: Yeah, I think maybe 2% of the conflict we ever have actually has a fact. We're arguing about “how much the couch cost last year?”

[Janis]: “Wait, what day is the ballet recital?”.

[Brent]: Exactly.

[Janis]: “We paid how much on plane tickets?”

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: Yeah. But those things can be proven; we can find those things. So, we don't waste time and energy over that. We just say “hey, let's just agree to look it up. Do you want to look it up? Do you want me to look it up?”

[Brent]: Perfect

[Janis]: But most of the time, it's over opinion. The problem is we think our opinions are facts.

[Brent]: I think my thoughts, because “I think something, I think is a fact”.

[Janis]: Exactly

[Brent]: It’s like “no, it’s just the way you interpret the world”.

[Janis]: But I think, as we talked about on an earlier podcast, it's also influenced by people around us. “So, my dad thinks--”.

[Brent]: Yes, exactly.

[Janis]: So, it is a fact. Whether you think it's an opinion or not, it is a fact. But we have to recognize that all of those are merely opinions and not facts.

[Brent]: Yeah, and therefore, in a significant relationship, a marriage for sure, a blend, some kind of a collaboration where we find common ground is the only reasonable solution. Couples spend so much time getting caught in this loop of who's right and who's wrong. Now, obviously, we picked that up from our culture. I mean, our culture is horrible at this. They just--

[Janis]: Getting worse all the time.

[Brent]: Just yell at each other and “we're in this camp, and you're in that camp, and we're right and you're wrong” and so, it's just a mess, you know? And so, we have to fight that tendency to want to slip into right and wrong and go “okay, what could solve this common ground?”

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: The fifth one, 1Corinthians 2:11 says “for who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God”. Don't read each other's mind, don't assume “I know why you're doing that” or “well, if you really love me, you would have taken care of that” and so, I'm assuming that because you didn't do something or because you said that in that tone of voice, you meant this.

[Janis]: Or you looked at me like that.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: You looked at me, and I know that's what you meant.

[Brent]: I know that's what you mean. So, we're reading their mind, we're telling them what they really think, and we're assuming certain things. Then I go off after what I assume you meant, which is not what you meant, then you react to the fact that I misunderstood you, and now we're off chasing rabbits, talking about stuff that's not even the point. So, we can’t assume, we have to hear the three steps, make sure we hear clearly from both sides, where we're not guessing or reading between the lines.

[Janis]: Yeah. Next scripture is “bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you, and over all these virtues, put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity”. Colossians 3:13 and 14. Don't play this-- Our guideline for this is, don't play archaeologists.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: Don't dig things out of the past. Now, if it's a current situation that was also happening in the past, it's different.

[Brent]: It hasn't been resolved.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: I mean, if it was resolved six months ago, then it's dirty fighting for me to pull out that of the hat today. Yes.

[Janis]: Right, and that's what people usually do to pad their argument, which is what we're not doing in this model.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: But I have often seen-- My favorite one was one that came in-- This is probably 20 years ago, but it was still old and they had an issue before they got married in 1944, and I was seeing them in probably the 90s and they were still dealing with this particular issue. She would still bring it up. It was something that happened in the past, but she would still bring it up.

[Brent]: And it been resolved, right? But she would still bring it up.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: Oh, my goodness.

[Janis]: To cause him pain.

[Brent]: Oh my gosh.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: Yeah. Now, we do want to differentiate this from trust issues. We know that there are some relationships where there's broken trust and we're still referencing the fact that there was an affair or there was this, that, or the other and we're still filling up-- If you remember in our podcast on trust building, we're filling up our bathtub with teaspoons in it, building that trust and so, the idea that we still are aware of that and we're referencing that still, and I'm a little sensitive to the fact that I'm still not fully trusting you yet. That's different than this.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: We have to consider that separately and so-- But these are things that, again, have been resolved. Again, if it happened six months ago and happened again last month and happened again yesterday, that's not archaeology, that's still an unresolved issue.

[Brent]: The next one is James 3:10, “out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be”. No name calling. Man, we've heard some really harsh things couples have called each other.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: And it's so damaging, it's so harmful. You're really the most powerful human voices in each other's life and so, for us to call another person a name is just so damaging. But we're not just talking about bad names, we're also talking about “you're just like your mother”, “are you men?” or in our enneagram world, “you eights”, you know?

[Janis]: Or “ones, relax”.

[Brent]: That's all name calling. Anything that we label them with something, its name calling. We've got to eliminate it, it's dirty fight.

[Janis]: Well, we have to recognize that all of us are growing and changing all the time. So, the person I was last year, I may be a little different than that. I'm definitely different from who I was 20 years ago or 40 years ago and so, we have to give ourselves grace that we're going to grow and change, but we also have to give our partner that and not just stick them in a box and say “this is who you are”.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: The next one is “for whoever would love life and see good day must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech”. This 1Peter 3:10. That is, no emotional blackmail. Emotional blackmail is “you know, if you really spend as much time in God's word as I do, you would understand that we need to do it this way”.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Janis]: “If you loved me… If you were a good husband… If you were really involved in the kids’ lives”. It's this negativity that's just already branded you. It's already saying “you are bad”. We may talk about that a little bit more when we talk about adults and their parents. That can be a common thing that happens with adults and their parents, but it automatically puts the person on the defensive and it never works.

[Brent]: Yeah, never and so, going to lead us to one of our most important ones. Romans 14:3, “therefore let us stop passing judgments on one another”. This is probably the most important skill that we could learn in conversations. We're going to learn how to use observational I-statements instead of judgmental You-statements. It can make a huge difference in conversations. I tell people, if you want to guarantee a person will not hear a word you've said, say a bunch of you-words, “you did this” and “you're that” and “you didn't ever do this”. They'll go into fight or flight; their fences are going to go up immediately. They're not even going to listen anymore, which defeats the point of talking and so, there's a difference between me saying “you told me yesterday that you were going to get this taken care of. You didn't do it yesterday; you still haven't done it today. Sometimes you frustrate me because you don't follow through with stuff”. Now, if I talk to a person that way, again, immediately they're going to go into defense mode. They're going to really hardly hear a word I say.

[Janis]: That's where the “oh yeah? Well, you--” automatically comes up.

[Brent]: Yeah. But if I just simply change the language. “Yesterday I was told that this was going to get handled. It didn't get taken care of yesterday, it still hasn't happened today yet. Well, I woke up really frustrated because I really need this to be done”. Now, you still know I'm talking to you, but I've changed the focus from “you're the problem”, which the you-words say, “you're bad. You're the problem”, to the problem is the problem.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: We're separating the person from the problem. It'll make a huge difference in conversations. I'm telling you folks; it'll make the world of difference. It leaves room for a response, which is “oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that. I'll get right on it” or “there's been a misunderstanding, there's no way I could have done it yesterday. It was next Monday or something that I could have done it”. But the first way I said it, I pretty much judged you, tried you and hung you and it turns it into immediately an adversarial “who's right? Who's wrong?” and it immediately spins off and so, if you just listen in our culture of conversations, just listen for how many you-words people say, and it'll make a huge difference. Now, this will take some practice because we use a lot of you-words. We really like them.

[Janis]: It's really the hardest thing when we're working with couples and training them in this. It's the hardest thing, is for them to learn to not use you-words.

[Brent]: Yeah, and now, there's some you-words that are not judgmental. You know, there are some that are just descriptive, “when you walked in the house” or whatever. But we coach couples, just to learn how to eliminate all of them and they look at me like, “well, how can I say this without saying you?” and we help them. That's why we coach them in doing this, because it takes some practice, but it'll make all the difference. So, it's conversations like, “when this happened” or “yesterday when I was told this”, or “when I walked in and saw this up on the counter”, or “I thought this was going to take place and this happened”. “This is what I thought. This is what I felt about it”. So, there's a way to do this where we're talking about the problem instead of the person. So, so important.

[Janis]: I emphasize with my couples over and over again; we really do have to focus on, it is the problem that's out here on the table. “You are not the problem; the problem is the dishes aren't getting done. The problem is the kids aren't getting to school on time. The problem is whatever else”. But we really have to view it as a problem that's out here, so that we can get a concrete solution, instead of “you just need to be a better person”.

[Brent]: Right

[Janis]: That's never going to go well.

[Brent]: Yeah, that doesn't mean they're not involved in it.

[Janis]: Absolutely.

[Brent]: But the problem is that this is not getting done. We're having this conversation so we together can figure out how do we get this done.

[Janis]: Yeah, we've got to work on it together.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: Yes. Okay, the next one, “he who answers before listening, that is his folly and shame”. So, you said the last one was the most important. This is right up there with it and that is never, never, never interrupt. We give people the respect of listening to everything they have to say. Now, people talk at different rates, so we have to be aware of that. But it's giving them our full attention and not interrupting, but also not mentally interrupting.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: It's so easy.

[Brent]: Not checking out, not rolling our eyes.

[Janis]: Yes. Oh, I love it when you work with couples and-- Maybe you don't have this, but I work with couples and one of them will start to say something, and the other will go…

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: That's an interruption.

[Brent]: Yes, exactly.

[Janis]: That is an interruption. Or you start thinking about something else, or you start thinking about what you have to say next. We want to stay focused on each other and focused on what we're talking about.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, never, ever, ever interrupt. Usually about halfway through their second sentence, they say something that triggers a reaction and that's “no, that's not what I said”; “Yes, it is” and then we're talking on top of each other and nobody's listening to anybody.

[Brent]: So, we always when we share this with couples, and we usually share this first with them, because we need to make sure that these make sense. I really have never had a couple not buy into this, you know? I say “would you agree these would be good guidelines to hold ourselves accountable?” and every couple “it's pretty obvious. Oh, my gosh, these would be great”. Now they think it's like magic that we could actually do it, because we've all blown most all of these in our life. We can all admit to that and you don't have to memorize these. You don't have to remember all ten of these, you don't have to remember “now, what's that assertive thing? How do I do that?”.

[Brent]: We're going to be showing you a three-step process. If you will follow those three steps in any issue of conflict where we just don't agree on something or my partner or worker or roommate or whatever has done something or not done something that's bothered me. If we can approach it with these three steps, you're going to be able to find a win/win solution.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: Now, we've been setting you up here, talking about these three steps, and you're like, “well, get to it!”.

[Loud music]

[Brent]: You're going to have to listen to another podcast.

[Janis]: We're not stretching this out because we make money off the podcast.

[Brent]: Yeah, we do not. [Unintelligible] how we can so easily slip into the dance step. We so easily slip into breaking these guidelines, slipping into one of those unhealthy patterns on how we approach conflict and all of that. If we can move towards these three steps and work on it, learn it, practice it, until it becomes the natural way that we approach things, it can mean such a difference in the world. It can bring unit in every relationship that we encounter. So, for today, hope you've been able to let this soak in. We invite you to the next one, since we set this up for that. But for today, blessings to you.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: Go in peace today.

[Janis]: Amen.