Our Struggle with Identity - Our Changing World, Part 2 (Episode 26)

Brent and his oldest son Father Preston, a priest in the Anglican tradition who founded and pastors a church in Nashville, continue the series as they discuss how easily we all get caught up in issues of performance and the opinion of others in forming our identity.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

This podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Preston Sharpe joins his dad, Brent Sharpe, for the next few episodes of Life & Love Nuggets.

Preston is Pastor/Rector of Sacrament Church in Nashville, Tennesee. He is Brent & Janis’ oldest son.

Born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Preston has been in pastoral ministry for over fifteen years in a variety of church contexts. He has a passion for the unity of the body of Christ and the mission of the Church.

Preston is a priest in the Diocese of Saint Anthony in the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches.

Preston has been married to Ashley Sharpe since 2006. Ashley is a licensed therapist in private practice. They have two daughters: Lucy who was born in 2013, the same year they moved to Nashville to plant Sacrament, and Betty who was born in 2022.

Preston holds a B.A. in Biblical Literature from Oral Roberts University and an M.A. in Christian Ministry from Friends University.

You can hear some of Preston’s sermons on Substack.

Transcript:

[Brent]: Hello, friends. Welcome back to Life & Love Nuggets. We're so glad that you're with us again. We’ve been-- We started this series. My son Preston, oldest son Preston is with us and so, we started this series on just talking about kind of your journey and what it was like to go-- Move from Tulsa, Oklahoma to Nashville, Tennessee and planted a church ten years ago, and just the ups and downs and ins and outs of that, and we've been talking about really, how this relates to all of us. Where we can easily get kind of caught up in kind of performance issues in our life and how we can spend a lot of time and energy trying to find a sense of self in life.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And we've kind of been taught since we were little people-- Again, we've talked about whatever great families we've come from, you know? I felt very loved and secure with my parents, but [Unintelligible] with schools and churches and in all kinds of situations, that I was taught real quick that you're valuable because of this, because of how you perform and how people think of you, and those seem to be two really driving forces in our culture.

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: And we've talked about the fact that those are kind of kingdom of man principles.

[Preston]: Yes

[Brent]: And if we allow ourselves to flow, whatever we do in life, we've just been talking about what it's like to be in the ministry, you know? To do that. But whatever we do in life, if that's the pathway we're chasing, then we're going to probably struggle at some point, because we get to a certain level of accomplishment and well, that's not quite enough, then I need to keep doing this and I keep needing to do this. So, we talked about how to recognize that and to realize that the only way that we find a true sense of self is recognizing that we've been created with an intrinsic sense of value.

[Preston]: Yes

[Brent]: From who we're created in the image of and that we have this sense of purpose in life of reflecting the nature of God will in the world.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, whatever we do in life and so-- But how easy it is. We ended the last discussion about kind of performance issues for pastors, and what it's like when people leave our church.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, you know, you're talking about the different things, people moving and I decided to go to this church and do this and do that, and that pastors are kind of set up with “you're just as good as your last sermon”, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: When people used to say “oh, I loved what you shared today”, I just kind of felt pressure that “well, I got to do a little bit better next time”.

[Preston]: Right, right.

[Brent]: And you talked about reasons people would leave and so forth, and I remember-- You know, somebody and well, I felt like I poured my life into this family and we helped them through different difficulties and stuff, and they said “You know, our four-year-old is playing soccer on a team with a little friend down the street and he goes to this church that has this Sunday school and so, we're going to go to that church”.

[Preston]: Right, right.

[Brent]: And bless their heart. They had no idea how that would affect me, again, and that pastors have to get to a place of being healthy, to where “I'm present with these people. I'm here to help them with where they're at. Certainly, can't expect them to really take care of me”.

[Preston]: Yes. Right, exactly.

[Brent]: “I need to serve them”.

[Preston]: Yes, yes.

[Brent]: But it's easier said than done.

[Preston]: Yeah, that's right. That’s right. Yeah, no.

[Brent]: You know, just curious about your experience with all that.

[Preston]: Oh yeah. No, I mean those things are really challenging and I think something you hit on that really glad that you said is, in no way do we want or expect people to make their decisions based on how we're going to feel, you know?

[Brent]: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Preston]: And so, there's a health that comes from that, of acknowledging-- You know, I love my bishop. Ed Gungor often talks about holding people lovingly and loosely.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: So, there's a sense-- And he's always been so good at this, you're so good at this, but a way we love people fully, but we also understand that they may choose to do something different tomorrow.

[Brent]: We don’t own them.

[Preston]: Exactly. There's no control.

[Brent]: Right. There’s no “ours”.

[Preston]: And that's actually true love, because true love is not control, control is not loving and so, that's something that pastors have to learn. I think that's something that we all have to learn and then, one of the things you were talking about, the intrinsic sense of self that is just so important and knowing that we're loved unconditionally, that's something that we often say. We say it in churches. I think I try to preach it in every sermon, that you're loved unconditionally and yet, for some reason as humans, we can't seem to quite get that.

[Brent]: Get a hard time getting off of our head to our hearts.

[Preston]: Totally and so, I think one of the cool things that happens though is when we understand that for ourselves, it's transformational and when I say “understand it”, it's not that we achieve it all of a sudden. “Oh, now I know I'm loved unconditionally and so, everything--”. We constantly wrestle with it and wrestle with getting it into our heart and into who we are. But when we get it, it can be transformational for us when we live into that and we step into that, and it can also be transformational in how we see other people.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: Because we stop looking at them through lenses of what they can do for us, or they're in the successful team or the unsuccessful team, you know? Or whatever. But we can look at people as complex creatures who are all fully loved by God.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: I was thinking about, as we were talking the last time too, I was thinking about the encounters that we have, the social encounters that we have and how often when we start on the surface, after we've talked about the weather and what our favorite football team is doing, we get a little bit deeper. We start talking about work, what people are doing, and some people, when they get in social situations, they put on the best face possible, which most of us do “well, this is going really well, this has been good” and we don't really talk as much about the things we're struggling with or the painful things that have happened over the past year.

[Preston]: But then when somebody does bring that up, when they're vulnerable enough to say “you know, the pandemic really just wiped out my whole business. It's been really challenging and I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do”. Sometimes we switch from “oh, they were really successful and they did all these things” to “oh… Whoa, are you like-- Oh my gosh, your whole life just crashed down” and “oh, man, you’re--" and we start to see them through a negative kind of lens maybe. Instead of looking at each person as a complex series of things going on in their life, and knowing God is doing something in them and revealing something to them about himself and about themselves through everything that they're experiencing. The successful things and the challenges and so, being able to look at that and sit with people's pain and then also be able to say something like “gosh, I'm so sorry that that has happened. Here's one of the things I've just always appreciated about you. Just valued about you and your heart and who you are”. Not “I really appreciate about you that you made X amount of dollars last year”. No, “I really appreciate about you that you were generous to me in this situation” or “you were kind to me” or “I love how you love your kids or your wife”. You know, that kind of thing. I think all that's important.

[Brent]: Well, what you’re doing there is you're representing the unconditional love of God to that person.

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: It's God [Unintelligible] on him, you know? And I think one of the reasons we have a hard time getting this from our head to our heart, which by the way, they suggest is the longest 18 inches on the planet.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: The difference between our head and our heart. Is because people don't love this way.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: People do put people in categories, you know? And they aren't fully accepting of people that are going through difficulties or have brokenness in their life and so, the ability to be with people and sit with them and accept them, whatever ups and downs and all around, is the representation of that nature. God's nature to people, and I think that's how we gain a greater understanding, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: It suggested the greatest love that's ever been is to be-- The most powerful love is to be fully known and fully loved.

[Preston]: Yes

[Brent]: Is to be able to live our life completely open, honest and transparent and yet, still be fully loved.

[Preston]: Yea

[Brent]: And gosh, those circumstances where that is found…

[Preston]: Yes. Oh my gosh.

[Brent]: Are few and far between.

[Preston]: But powerful.

[Brent]: Oh my gosh.

[Preston]: But powerful.

[Brent]: So powerful. You know, in my work as a counselor, we've seen this kind of in the recovery organizations, you know? That started with Alcoholics Anonymous back in the 50s and, you know, it’s the all-different kinds of expressions of this.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: But what we see that's happened-- I've listened these testimonials of people that have had these experiences. They've hit bottom, you know? In the most difficult places and they step into a community that wraps their arms around them, and they're all on the same playing field.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And we understand because we've been there. Oh my gosh, I'm thinking “this is what our churches should be”, right?

[Preston]: Yes, that’s right.

[Brent]: And yet, everybody seemingly in our churches, we're scared to death of letting people know who we really are or what is really-- My real life, because I'm not sure how you're going to look at that.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: I'm afraid you're going to judge that or not accept me anymore. All of a sudden now, you're going to be in a little higher plane in life than I am and so, we all kind of keep everything pretty close to the vest.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And I would suggest therefore real healing has a hard time of actually happening in those settings.

[Preston]: Yes, that's right.

[Brent]: Because everybody's kind of managing life and so, not only being able to live in a way that we leave that openness to others, but also be that to people that are being open. I think is the only way that we communicate what we've been talking about kingdom of man principles. But the kingdom of God principle is that you are valuable because of who you are, not because of what you've done, not because of these successes or whatever.

[Preston]: You talk about the challenge of getting it from your head to your heart and I love that. Of course, when we talk about our heart, we're not talking about the muscle that pumps blood.

[Brent]: [Unintelligible] Exactly, yeah.

[Preston]: We're talking about the core of who we are, the essence of who we are. In fact, in scripture, some places it suggests that we should translate heart, belly, because it's like the center, the core of who we are that really emanates from us. So, there's always this challenge, how do we get that 18-inches to cross? You guys in marriage talk so much about healthy habits and how those healthy habits help us get those things we know intellectually to the core of who we are, to where it changes us, and it's the same in our walk with God, in our devotional life, in our sacramental life. That those things we do over and over again, have that way of “okay, I know God forgives me, I know he loves me, but for it to actually change, it begins to get into our habits”.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: So of course, we talk about prayer. I mean, every good pastor worth of [Unintelligible] is going to say “Pray! Pray to God and read your bible!”, you know? These kinds of things. But even things like, you know, when we receive communion at church, that it's a meal we're actually ingesting that God's presence is with us and there's a sense of “you are what you eat”. So, whatever you do that over and over again, it gets that from your head to your heart. It begins to transform and change you fully to where it's like, “I am receiving of the meal of the love of God, of Christ's love for me and that changes me, changes who I am”.

[Brent]: Yeah. You know, it's those practices.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: You know, when we did kind of the few sessions on the enneagram and different numbers that we identify as and we talked about these disciplines or these practices that help us transform and to change who we are, and I have a really good friend of mine who-- We've both been in this field, we've both been counselors for 40+ years and we've seen this-- Probably the majority of people that have ever walked in my door, you know? One of the core foundational things that they all are dealing with is “who am I? Am I significant? Do I count? Am I valuable in the world?”. Now, they're not necessarily-- They’re not walking around saying that to other people, but that's what they're struggling with and it comes out in all kind of manifestations. Because if we don't have this sense of who we really are away from our performance and opinion of others and all those kinds of things, then we will look for other things to find satisfaction and happiness, and we say that if we don't know God's plan on how to find a place of peace and a sense of self and sense of purpose in life, well, there's like a gazillion counterfeits, right?

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: Things that will say “This will make you happy. This will fulfill you. This will satisfy you. This will numb you out so you don't feel your pain”. All these kinds of things that people are chasing after and that's what gets them into trouble, because we call it a counterfeit because it's not fully satisfying.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: I always say it's a little bit like drinking salt water.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: If you're out in the desert and you're thirsty and you come over a hill and you see the ocean, it's like “oh my gosh, my thirst has now been quenched”.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: I mean, I've got all the water I could ever imagine, but the moment I drink from that water, it just makes me thirstier.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: So, a counterfeit is something we're chasing after that just never fully satisfies, so I have to have more and more and more. So, I have to have more accomplishments, more success, more money, more phenomenal experiences, more friends, more Facebook posts or whatever, and it never fully satisfies and so, it's-- Again, recognizing that those things aren't doing it and so, reorienting ourselves to “what is going to bring that fulfillment?” and so, where I was going with my story was my friend and I have been doing this journey and been working with people caught in traps and counterfeits, and coming to us sharing stuff that they've never shared with any other human on the planet before and wondering how we're going to even respond, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: You know, they're a little nervous because they're not sure we're not going to shame them or whatever, and then they all of a sudden feel like they've “oh my gosh, this person's actually accepting me and loving me and caring for me”. But my friend and I are going “how long have we been teaching this stuff?”.

[Preston]: Yeah, that’s right! That’s right!

[Brent]: Because we're very open with each other and we’re like “and how much am I still caught in this?”.

[Preston]: Yes.

[Brent]: So, over the years of church work, you know, I'd talk about a difficult thing that we'd go through and all of a sudden, the political world is swirling and it's infecting-- I would call it literally infecting our church, okay?

[Preston]: That’s right. Yeah.

[Brent]: And people find out that their faith has a lot to do with their politics. You know, they've melded those together and so, I’m talking to him about the difficulties and challenges this last decade or two. I mean, how many-- How much of that's pervasive in the church world now and you know, believing as a pastor that we're supposed to have people from all different political spectrums in our churches.

[Preston]: Sure.

[Brent]: I mean, isn't this how it should be? When I say that to people, they look at me like I've lost my mind, I'm growing horns or something, you know? And so, I'd be sharing that with my friend and he was like “and you're going to fix all of this? And because they're thinking this, that means you're failing?”.

[Preston]: Yes

[Brent]: “I mean, Brent, how long is it going to take for you to-- For this to sink into your heart?”, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, the point is we have to do it over and over and over again and meditate on the truths and remind ourselves of the truths and remind each other of the truths, and the way that we love each other, reminds us of that nature of who we are and where we get our value from.

[Preston]: That's right. That's so good and in the Bible, it's called idolatry, right? When we build something that's a counterfeit.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: The difference between an idol and the one true God is we make the idol. We can control it. It's something that we can make and we can go “look, God is this thing I've crafted. This is my God and I'm going to worship that thing”. That thing can be approval. That thing can be performance. That thing can be things like our political perspective. I mean, it can be all these things that we go “because I'm in control of this and I can make it do better”.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: You know, in the ancient world, that's what they did. I mean, so many of the idols were built around the harvest or built around fertility. So, it was either, “I can have babies. I need to pray to this God to have babies or to have a better harvest” or an economic kind of harvest that happens and so, that was the idea. In fact, the people who worship the one true God, the Hebrew people who worship the one true God, the reason why they're so tempted by these other gods is these gods promised “your harvest is going to be better and you're going to have more babies”.

[Brent]: Who doesn’t want that, right?

[Preston]: So, they just keep turning towards this. So, that's why the Old Testament especially, is full of all these ways where God says “stop doing that!”.

[Brent]: “Quit it!”.

[Preston]: Like, “you need to worship the one true God, just me and me alone” and so, that's what you're talking about, is this reminding ourselves of the truth “that thing's not going to satisfy you. If you keep chasing after it, it's just going to go nowhere. It's not going to meet your need because you made it, you crafted it”.

[Brent]: Yeah, and so, it's really an upside-down kind of a thing, right?

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: I mean, what-- Where we're going to find places of a sense of self, a sense of fulfillment and peace in life is going to be really counter to the obvious ways that our world suggests and so, really paying attention to that and not-- But it's so easy to get caught up I the counterfeits.

[Preston]: Let me say one more thing about that.

[Brent]: Go, go.

[Preston]: So, we even do this like, when it comes to the economy. You know, the economy shifts, and we often talk about the economy like it's a god. So, we say “what's happening with the economy?”. It's this big mystical thing. Now we know that's all dollars and cents like, on the ground level, but the way we talk about it is this like, mighty being that's like, crafting things and doing things and then our anxiety is often built off of that.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: So, whatever the economy is doing, then that causes us to stress. Reminding yourself the truth is not ignoring that those factors are present, but it's putting them into perspective and saying “okay, I do believe that the one true God cares about me, loves me, defines who I am, I'm not defined by those other forces and has good for me and for the whole world”.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we could probably talk forever on some of this.

[Preston]: Sorry. Yeah.

[Brent]: No, no, don’t be sorry. Thank you for-- Appreciate you just talking about these ways that we see that we can-- There's just different paths, right?

[Preston]: To off track, yeah.

[Brent]: We can get off track so easily and it gets confusing because it's so pervasive in culture of this is-- You talked about control, that this is the way to happiness, these are good people, this is the right way to be and we're going to control this system and then we're going to get all the bad people over there, get them-- Maybe even legislate so they can't be bad anymore.

[Preston]: Right, right.

[Brent]: And all of that is this sense of control that we have and just really being paying attention to that.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: So, our time for this moment is to come, but thank you again for joining us in this and we trust that in all of our journeys, that I think one of the things that is so significant about this moment that we've talked about is, how can I be the--? The representation of the nature of God's love to us? How can I be that to others?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: How can I represent that to others? And so, that they might see what this is like. Because, again, the reason we don't trust that that's how God really thinks and is, is because we just don't see that much.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: But we can-- Each of us, one by one, can make a difference in this.

[Preston]: That's good.

[Brent]: So, for today, go in peace. Blessings as you go.