Our Disconnected World - Our Changing World, Part 3 (Episode 27)

Brent and his oldest son Father Preston, a priest in the Anglican tradition who founded and pastors a church in Nashville, finish their series as they discuss how the pandemic and other factors have disconnected our world and the importance of moving toward people that are different than us.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

This podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Preston Sharpe joins his dad, Brent Sharpe, for the next few episodes of Life & Love Nuggets.

Preston is Pastor/Rector of Sacrament Church in Nashville, Tennesee. He is Brent & Janis’ oldest son.

Born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Preston has been in pastoral ministry for over fifteen years in a variety of church contexts. He has a passion for the unity of the body of Christ and the mission of the Church.

Preston is a priest in the Diocese of Saint Anthony in the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches.

Preston has been married to Ashley Sharpe since 2006. Ashley is a licensed therapist in private practice. They have two daughters: Lucy who was born in 2013, the same year they moved to Nashville to plant Sacrament, and Betty who was born in 2022.

Preston holds a B.A. in Biblical Literature from Oral Roberts University and an M.A. in Christian Ministry from Friends University.

You can hear some of Preston’s sermons on Substack.

Transcript:

[Brent]: Hello, friends. Welcome back to Life & Love Nuggets. We are continuing a series that we have begun. It's our third time together with my oldest son Preston. Preston Sharp is a pastor in Nashville, a priest in the Anglican tradition and we've just been talking about kind of what we find in our worlds, what's going on with people, what challenges they face, the excitement they have with new beginnings and new things, but also the challenges that go along with that, and how that begins to affect our sense of self and how we operate in the world and how we can-- Because we get so caught up in kind of performance driven life by just how our culture operates, how that affects us and how it can get us off track and chasing things that really aren't fully satisfying. So, some of the changes that are going on in culture right now are impacting this.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: I mean, we've just come through this little thing called a pandemic.

[Preston]: Yeah, that's right.

[Brent]: It’s a-- Gosh, it's been challenging and it's something we've never-- I mean, I'm an old guy and I've never gone through anything like this before.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: But we see that it's had some pretty significant effect on our world and culture and how our culture relates to itself and-- So, have you found that?

[Preston]: A little bit. Yeah, I have.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: No, I think the pandemic has affected our world, our society, us individually, our families, relationships, everything in ways that we don't even fully know yet, you know?

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: There's going to be so many books written about this period of time. There's going to be so many documentaries that come out that are going to remind us of things that we're going to go “oh yeah, that was a thing, wasn't it?”, you know? “And remember when we used to like, disinfect our groceries when they came in the house? We were told that that was going to help us” and just all the fear we were experiencing and the uncertainty and then the change in rhythms, like the change in our habits. Now, I got to say some of these things, as with any major event we go through, there's good things that come out of stuff. So, I think some of the ways workplaces work, there may be some positive best practices that come out of how, you know, workplaces understand things. There's a sense of resiliency, I think. I always think back to the generation that went through The Great Depression. Many of them come out and, yes, there's so many wounds through that, but also some ways to say “Hey, we made it through because of some principles. That this and this and this”.

[Brent]: Right. Yeah, for sure.

[Preston]: I think there'll be some of that that comes out of it. But also, there's a great deal of pain and I think one of the greatest things that has happened is this sense of disconnection. We each kind of retreated to our own homes, which we needed to. It was necessary for a period of time. We knew we cared for our neighbors because we needed to be apart from them, which was so weird, caring for our neighbors by staying away from them.

[Brent]: Right, yeah.

[Preston]: It was just such an odd thing.

[Brent]: Loving your neighbor by staying away from them.

[Preston]: That's right, that’s right and yet, it created such a disconnection. Now, I think that in our culture, we were already experiencing some disconnections. Some of it is the increase in technology, in the ways that the Internet has taken over so much of our lives, that so many of the things we used to do with each other together, life on life in relationship, are now done through the Internet. So, you used to meet together for a book club around a table. Well, now the book club is all virtual, you know?

[Brent]: Right

[Preston]: Or you used to be part of Duck Hunters United or whatever and now, that's a Facebook group. It's not an in person gathering.

[Brent]: Or I’d walk out into our lobby and everybody's on their phones looking down.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: They don't ever greet each other, they’re just-- You know, right?

[Preston]: That's right and so much of that change. I know in my world, in the church world, things change drastically and I think the church, when the world goes through something major, spirituality and religion changes for people in a variety of different ways. You think about on September 11, when there for a period of time right after September 11 the churches were packed, you know?

[Brent]: Right, yeah.

[Preston]: People are seeking something and going after something. Well, in the pandemic, churches had to shut down for a period of time in person gatherings and so, people kind of got used to watching church online and then some of it was, well, our rhythms have changed and so, it became easy for a lot of people to disconnect from communities of faith altogether and there's a lot of people that I know-- I mean, I mentioned before that I pastor in a city and in a neighborhood with a lot of people who had been disaffected by church. Even those then that gave church a chance even for a number of years, it became so easy to get back into the rhythms of not being part of a community of faith again.

[Preston]: One of the things that happens when we lose, that's called embodiment. So, when we're together with each other, we've got bodies in a room connected in relationship, it's embodiment. You know, you're with each other together. When you become disembodied, then one of the tendencies can be that things become even more polarized. So, one of the things we found through the pandemic is we have another thing to fight about.

[Brent]: Yeah, how we handle the pandemic.

[Preston]: Exactly.

[Brent]: Or whether our churches stay open or whether they're virtual. Absolutely.

[Preston]: So, it's better to say we have many more things to fight about.

[Brent]: Oh, so happy for that.

[Preston]: So, our culture that was already polarized just became even more polarized. In our churches, one of the ways that that was affected is people had already gotten to this point a little bit, but it got to the point of “okay, is this a conservative church or a liberal church?”

[Brent]: And what they did about the pandemic even could have been a check mark, right?

[Preston]: Yes. “Is this a pro-vaccine church or an anti-vaccine church?”, which as a pastor, if somebody would have told me a generation ago that people would label us based on a response to a vaccine, that would-- Man, it was just so surprising and then in the middle of 2020, we had a lot of other things that happened too. We had the death of George Floyd. We had a lot of protests that happened. We had a lot of really major things that I know all the pastors in my world and the people who I encounter were just struggling and going “we need to respond to these heavy issues”. But if they're heavy and we're not sure our people are going to give us grace because “what if I say it wrong?” or “what if I don't say something and I'm supposed to say something?” or “what if I want people to both be understood, but I'm supposed to say certain buzzwords and if I leave them out, then this person's going to think I'm not on their team?”.

[Brent]: Wow. Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: And so, everything just became so difficult and so, I see that in the church world, for sure, but I think it's happened in every part of our world now. In our family systems, we have become identified by kind of how we vote, and that's broken families apart, how families respond to the pandemic.

[Brent]: Yeah, a lot families are opposite, yeah, and it's kept them away from even seeing each other.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: Whether they would come to Christmas or not.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: Based on “well, they're that” or whatever and so, yeah. Keep going with that. Yeah.

[Preston]: Yeah. So, I just think that polarization definitely has increased things. When we become polarized, there's things I will say to you when I disagree with you on the Internet, that I would not say to you when we're in the same room.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: Now, you might be different. You're my dad. I hope I'd be nice to you on the Internet. But when we're with people in person, there's also this sense of community and mutual partnership. Paul calls it koinonia or fellowship by the spirit. There's a sense of like, when Christians get together-- You know, especially there's this sense of the spirit binds us together to where we're in a partnership. We're in a relationship with one another. When that's broken apart, we can become only labeled by our political affiliation or our talking points and so, then if I don't see you as a person anymore or a fellow in relationship with you or bound together with you by the spirit, if I see you as only that label, then of course I’m gonna-- I think that label is evil.

[Brent]: Right

[Preston]: So, I'm going to just treat you, you know, like an evil thing or a demon thing is important. I'll say one more thing about that. Martin Buber was a Jewish philosopher and he talked about different ways to understand relationships and one of the ways, the really primary way to understand a relationship is I-You. So, I am a person, you are a person, and we are in relationship. But unfortunately, so many relationships are defined by I-It. That you're not actually a person, you are an object and so, I'm going to treat you that way and there is no possibility of relationship when that's the case.

[Brent]: Yeah, culture seems to have such a difficult time. We see this and we're working with couples in trying to blend differences and find common ground and have such a difficult time holding differing opinions and seeing them as differing opinions instead of right or wrong. Our culture slipped into so much right and wrong and “our camp’s right, your camp's wrong, and by the way, we're going to try to control your camp and make you be right or get you to stop doing that or whatever”.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: So, that polarization has affected all of us, right? And so, it causes us to not even move towards other people that are different or because we feel the rejection of others or we then reject them and so--

[Preston]: And actually, when I was talking about what Martin Buber said, that was the third category. So, it's I-You is the appropriate relationship. I-It is kind of an objectifying relationship. I get from you what I want because you're not really a person, you're an object. The other one is Us-Them.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: But there's children of light and there's children of darkness and that means if you're not on my side in this political issue or whatever, you're a child of darkness and so, I'm against you. When we see our fellow image-bearing humans as someone we're against, it never sets us up for good healthy relationships.

[Brent]: Yeah, and no wonder people would even be wondering about God or the church right now.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: Because it looks like a big part of the church is just mad at the rest of the world and wants to pronounce them as evil and “we're going to get you to stop doing what you're doing, whatever that might be”. So why would I be drawn to that?

[Preston]: Exactly.

[Brent]: Why would I--? “So, you represent God. What?”.

[Preston]: Yes.

[Brent]: And so-- Now, again, I know there's big issues, okay? And I’m not trying to make light of things, but boy, we have not-- We've really disconnected and so, what do we do? Two of us sitting in a room talking about this and having-- You know, and the people that we are around and the people that we influence and, what do we do with that? How do we move towards people purposely that have differing positions on things? It's not the most comfortable thing to do. We always usually hang around with people that we're like.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, acknowledging that unity is the key, it’s-- Jesus talked about this on the way to the cross, [Unintelligible] “Let them be one as we are one”. That's the heart of the message.

[Preston]: Yes

[Brent]: And so, in each of our little worlds, how do we find somebody that's different? Somebody that we don't quite see the same? And how do we move towards them and not make that thing that separates us the thing?

[Preston]: Yes.

[Brent]: You know, I think people have made these issues as the biggest thing on the planet, you know? And have forgotten that we're to love.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: And so, how do I love and value you even if you see things different? Which means, I listen.

[Preston]: Yes, yes.

[Brent]: I hear and I understand and so, I hear people all the time. You know, as a counselor, you don’t-- We don't filter who comes to us, you know? And so, most people know we're Christians, but boy, I get a huge spectrum, you know? From all different positions about God, about church, about whatever and yet, dealing with common issues and as they share about their issues or share about the struggles. So, interesting when you open your ears and hear “I never thought about it that way”.

[Preston]: Yeah.

[Brent]: “I never saw that particular struggle and realized that that's what that person journey has been” and all of a sudden you hear a story and you hear even how they've coped with that story. Well, I tell you what, our mercy and grace towards others just expands. We see every day people going through difficult things and then they have felt judgment from others.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: Oh, my gosh. Their grace and mercy for others just explodes, because when they have received-- When they've gone through brokenness and they've received love and acceptance even in the midst of their brokenness, boy, their mercy just opens up.

[Preston]: Oh, that's right.

[Brent]: Wide open for others and so, the reality is we all are broken and we all should realize that we've been forgiven so much. [Unintelligible]

[Preston]: That’s right, that’s right.

[Brent]: But boy, it's easy when I can keep all my stuff hidden.

[Preston]: Yeah, that's so good. That's right on and I think realizing we all are broken and then realizing that we're all complicated. So, sometimes what the culture tends to try to do is to try to get us to put people in neatly defined camps and we're all complicated. I mean, so many people that you meet are such a mixture of so many different things and yes, they've been pushed to say “hey, I'm either a conservative or liberal or Democrat or Republican or whatever it is, and I got to fit into these nice camps”. But they're way more complex than that.

[Brent]: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[Preston]: So, sometimes, you know-- Even I remember in the early days of the church, I was like “lord, if you just bring me some grown up Christians, some ones that are all together. I just need some grown-ups that they come in, they've got it figured out, they're living the resurrection life, they're living fully” and I quickly realized that the people who I thought were the most kind of grown-up Christians also have wounds. Now, there's such things as spiritual maturity. There's such things as learning what to do with your wound and you know, that kind of thing, but everybody has those kinds of things that they carry with them. So, that's so incredibly important and you made a really good point about how are people to be drawn to or connect with the church if this is the way we think about them, if we think about Us-Them in categories or you know, that kind of deal and I think that's something we have to come to terms with. Because we're living in a world now, one of the impacts is before the pandemic, we started to see in the United States that many, many people were leaving the church and you know, we have lived for really since the founding of our country, we have lived with kind of Christianity, if not the center of our country, running in the background of our country.

[Brent]: Yeah, for sure.

[Preston]: It's always been assumed. I live in Nashville, of course, and Flannery O'Connor once said “the south is not Christ centered, but it is Christ haunted” and it's because everybody has some sense of who Jesus is kind of in their background and so, there's a sense that Christianity has been running in the background. Well, now, that's not really going to be assumed and, in many cities, like even where I live, that's not assumed that people go to church or are part of a Christian culture.

[Brent]: [Unintelligible], yeah.

[Preston]: Yes, exactly and so, what's happening is many people, and a lot of people are citing the hypocrisy of the church, and some of it is right. Some of it may not be right. I mean, some of the-- It may be caricatures of what they're seeing, but that's their experience and that's what they're experiencing and this has just all heightened it. So, there's such a fear of “am I going to be labeled? Am I going to be judged if I show up? And then also, am I going to have to sit through somebody labeling and judging everybody else in a sermon?”. So, I think one of-- But we have an opportunity, I think. Those of us who are Christians, we have this opportunity now to go “okay, now that it's not assumed in the culture--”. If we get to this point where it's not just assumed that everybody's Christian or most people are Christian, then we can get to this place to go “What did Jesus really call us to do? And how do we live those maybe in ways that are not big and powerful kind of ways, but in the simple ways loving our neighbors, loving our neighborhood, and extending the unconditional love of Christ?”. So, I see it as an opportunity. This may be-- Even though it feels like a loss of power or influence, and it is. It's this opportunity for us to say “who are we really?”

[Brent]: Yeah. Well, and Christianity flourished when it was a minority.

[Preston]: Yeah, that's right.

[Brent]: Right? And grew up in a Roman culture, dominated and so, again, I think we fear so much. You know, there's a fear right now, I think, we're losing control of our country and this and that and so-- And yet, God is still God.

[Preston]: That's right. That's right.

[Brent]: And the commission of what we've been led, the way we've been led to live to love others and to love God, to love our neighbor fully. That's still been the same since the beginning. So, how do we do that? How do we do that in our own individual contexts and circumstances?

[Preston]: You think about how much-- How little political power the early church had?

[Brent]: Oh my gosh, none.

[Preston]: Like, they’re a little community in this great and so, they're just kind of hoping we have a benevolent emperor who comes up next, or more benevolent than the last one. In fact, Peter, in his letters in the New Testament, he seems to be saying to the church “just don't tick anybody off. Just live your lives good and Godly lives and just don't make anybody mad”. I'm not saying that's the advice for us today, but he seems to just be saying “just live peacefully and do what you're supposed to be doing” and I think there's a healthy dose of that that we need today too.

[Brent]: Interesting. So, we also talk as we kind of wrap this section up. You know, we talked earlier I have retiring from being a pastor for 40 years last year. I have a heart for pastors. I believe they're doing a really important work in the world and yet, a very hard work. You know, when I have young pastors saying that this is what they want to do, I go “are you sure? Have you lost your mind?”. Because I know that just like you, you felt called to do this since you were five and I know that God has this, you know? But boy, I say if you're going into this kind of work hoping that you're going to feel good about yourself and this is how you're going to, you know, feel really good about who you are and feel “successful” and all that kind of stuff, you and I need to recheck that, you know?

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: Because successful pastoring only comes from people that really have this sense of “who I am” without all of this, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: It's not about the numbers and how big this is and that is and how we can do this [Unintelligible]. Again, not that we're not supposed to move the kingdom of God forward in the world.

[Preston]: Sure

[Brent]: So, how can we encourage those that are in that role? And I would say, again, we spent quite a bit of time talking about pastors and church and so forth here, but I would say anybody that's in our world that we work with, coworkers, our bosses. You know, if you work in a corporation, your boss who you have, the leaders of any kind of organization, everybody's dealing with the same stuff.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: Is “do I count?”. You know, I have a lot of people that deal with-- They have difficult bosses that are just either unreasonable or harsh or whatever, and I try to help them. “Okay, let's understand where that harshness comes from”.

[Preston]: Yeah.

[Brent]: There's a battle they're fighting. They don't even realize it, okay?

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: They're feeling insecurities in their life, and one way of dealing with my insecurities is “I take control”.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: “I control people and I tell them because I'm their boss and I tell them what to do, and I get them to do that. That helps me feel better about myself” and so, only when we're able to see through different lenses, can we understand why people are cranky and do the things that they do. But yet, we're still called to love our enemy and so, how do we do that? I think the key is seeing that hurt people hurt people. We see out of their own damage and out of their own hurt that they're acting this way and so, how would we care for them? I started with how do we care for our pastors, then I went into all that.

[Preston]: That's all right, that’s good. No, that’s good.

[Brent]: But-- And so, what would this say to us, I mean-- You know, as a pastor, if you're struggling with something's going on politically and you're trying to figure out “how do I say this?”, what would be helpful for a parishioner to say to you? Because many want you to give the right answer or they want you to give the answer they want you to say.

[Preston]: Yeah.

[Brent]: What would be hopeful?

[Preston]: Yeah. Well, I think giving your pastor grace is just so important. Like being able to say-- And I've spent a lot of my time-- We talked about some of my issues on a previous podcast, but I've spent so much of my life trying to craft the perfect things to say, and I've just really tried to a fault, trying to kind of say the perfect things and you know, there's something good about that, especially when you're talking to a large group. You know, you want to make sure you're saying things diplomatically.

[Brent]: Be careful. Yeah.

[Preston]: Be careful and appropriately, but being able to go “okay, my pastor said this and that was maybe-- Wasn't exactly how I would have said it”, but being able to go “but I trust her heart or his heart” is just really, really important. I think extending grace and recognizing that-- This is maybe dumb to say, but all pastors are human beings. They're called to be-- You know, they're human beings in the world and we make mistakes.

[Preston]: The other thing I think is celebrating your pastor, but celebrating them not just for what they do, but for who they are and separating that. So, I think as much as you're able to point out character things and not performance things, I think that can be helpful. So, like being able to say “thank you for the way that you care for us. Gosh, I can just sense your care in these things”. I think-- But then let me separate this and go, it is good to say “I really appreciated that thing you did”.

[Brent]: Yeah. Sure.

[Preston]: So, good sermon is not a bad thing to say, and in fact, we probably should say it more rather than less. But what I would encourage is, why did you find that meaningful or that valuable? You always talked about in your sermons, you'd say “I want to interview every person afterwards to hear what they got”, and that's the counselor they need to hear what they got out of it. But there is a sense of all of us, we go “are you listening? I mean, the guy in the second row is asleep right now. I don't know. Are any of you listening to what I'm saying? Like, you just walked up and got coffee a few minutes ago. Did you hear that? I thought that part was good”. But being able to say “hey, I really appreciated that story that you told about this, because it was meaningful to me in this way”. As much as you're able to do that. Not everybody's comfortable articulating something like that.

[Brent]: Right, right.

[Preston]: I get it. But just saying “that was meaningful”. Sometimes when a pastor is greeting somebody at the door when they leave and you just hear “good sermon, good sermon, good sermon”, you're kind of like “okay. Well, I hope it was-- You know, really to do something”, you know? But being able to-- So, separating performance from character and celebrating character and then also, saying you appreciate the performance, but saying it intentionally, you know? I think all of that is really, really good. I think trying to be sensitive to when the church is going through a hard time or when you can sense the pastor has gone through something difficult in their life and then acknowledging that moment, I think can be really good. I still think old cheesy ways of celebrating your pastor are actually good little certificates that they get or little gift or something. You know, the opportunity to say that and just say “we do acknowledge you; we do appreciate you” can be really, really good, but it's got to be trying not to feed the performance machine that they're getting from everywhere else is really valuable.

[Brent]: Yeah, That’s right.

[Preston]: One more thing I would say too, is just communicate with your pastor. There's going to be some times where somebody does need to leave a church and there's appropriate times to leave a church. It's not that we're supposed to just stay in the same church for the rest of our lives always, you know? So, communicating clearly and then communicating out of a place of love and then, if you are a faithful member of a church and you know you're going to be gone for a month, just saying to your pastor “hey, we're going on a long vacation. We're going to be gone for a while, but we love you guys and we're praying for the church while we're gone”, that can all be good.

[Brent]: That's good. Yeah, and I think just even acknowledging “wow, I know this is a hard thing that you're having to handle right now. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes or whatever, you know? I don’t know how you say this, but thanks for being willing to do the best that's possible in this, because you're not going to make everybody happy. But I just so appreciate how difficult this is”. I think validating that experience can be very helpful for people to understand that this is challenging and I would say then, how do we move that into even other settings? You know, when we've got bosses or coworkers or whatever? I think even being able to, again, recognize they're dealing with the same issues and they wonder what you think of them. They wonder-- They're dealing with performance issues. These are demands from above them, and they're having to pass those demands on. Recognizing it’s-- “I'm sure it's difficult for you to manage what you're dealing with” and we did an earlier podcast on what it is that we-- What we focus on determines our attitudes. So, being able to recognize the good that we see and appreciate those things and speak to those things, that puts everything a little bit more in perspective, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah. Just an example of this. So, we've all probably had this experience, but my daughter had an issue at school recently, and we had to reach out to her teacher, and we try to stay in communication with her teacher, but this was an issue where we did have some critique of something the school was doing. But the first thing I tried to do is acknowledge “oh my gosh, how hard it is to be a teacher right now”, and that this teacher in particular is handling this with such grace and is so good at her job and you know, all of these things, and then being able to say “hey, here's something we're struggling with. Can we do this together? Can we figure this out together?” it’s helpful. But acknowledging, gosh, if you're going in criticizing a teacher right now, no, they are going through so much, and it's true with a lot of our different jobs right now. But just acknowledging the pain somebody's going through and then, the ways that they are handling it in a good way.

[Brent]: Yeah, and if we can realize that everybody's going through this same battle of performance and trying to get their validation of what people think of them. So, they've got people above them expecting certain sales quotas and expecting them to hit these marks.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: And expecting all of their staff loves them and gives them good reports to the upper [Unintelligible].

[Preston]: Yeah, sure.

[Brent]: They're all dealing with that same pressure, that same stress. So, when people get crazy and do crazy, it's because they're reacting to those lies. [Unintelligible] consider those lies values based on your performance or what other people think of you. They're reacting to those lies in not the healthiest, appropriate ways. But when we see them through that lens, we just have more grace for people and that we can move towards them and again, doesn't mean there's not some really difficult situations that you have to set some boundaries from. You might leave that company or whatever, all that kind of stuff. But I think for us to really do the kingdom of God work in the world and represent his love to the world, and we got to be able to handle difficult people in difficult circumstances.

[Preston]: That's right. That’s good.

[Brent]: So-- Well, I remember times you in high school, this would have been our dining room table. We could have talked about all kinds of stuff, you know?

[Preston]: Yes, yes.

[Brent]: And so, I know we could go on and on and on, but we should bring this to a close. But thank you for jumping in and I just want you to know how much mom and I love you and so respect you and so appreciate the way that you carry the good work that you're doing, the way that you love people, the way that you have even dealt with these issues.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: I know it’s-- I know even in the place that we should have all of this stuff understood, which is Church world, that the pressures of “success” and being a pastor and so, I know that all that stuff affects you. But the way you keep bouncing back and moving through that with grace and enjoying being present with your people, whoever shows up on a Sunday, whoever's calling you for needs, that you are present in such an amazing way. So, we love you. So thankful for that.

[Preston]: I'm so blessed to have you guys as parents, I just-- I've said it many times, but I don't have the words to thank you for who you are and what you mean to me. I've never doubted for a second in my life that you've loved me and that's really where so much of this comes from, is the understanding of love and the way that you reflect God's love and thanks for all you're doing to bless so many people, too.

[Brent]: Well, thank you. Okay, well, we've enjoyed these moments, and thank you for listening in. So, for today, go in peace.