Managing Expectations - Our Changing World, Part 1 (Episode 25)

Brent and his oldest son Father Preston, a priest in the Anglican tradition who founded and pastors a church in Nashville talk about all the shifts and changes in our world and how that impacts each of us in very significant ways. In this episode, they talk about the importance of managing expectations.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

This podcast should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Preston Sharpe joins his dad, Brent Sharpe, for the next few episodes of Life & Love Nuggets.

Preston is Pastor/Rector of Sacrament Church in Nashville, Tennesee. He is Brent & Janis’ oldest son.

Born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Preston has been in pastoral ministry for over fifteen years in a variety of church contexts. He has a passion for the unity of the body of Christ and the mission of the Church.

Preston is a priest in the Diocese of Saint Anthony in the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches.

Preston has been married to Ashley Sharpe since 2006. Ashley is a licensed therapist in private practice. They have two daughters: Lucy who was born in 2013, the same year they moved to Nashville to plant Sacrament, and Betty who was born in 2022.

Preston holds a B.A. in Biblical Literature from Oral Roberts University and an M.A. in Christian Ministry from Friends University.

You can hear some of Preston’s sermons on Substack.

Transcript:

[Brent]: Hello, friends. Welcome back to Life & Love Nuggets. We usually say, with Brent and Janis Sharp, but today we got a little different thing we're doing here. I have a very special treat today. One of my most favorite people on the planet happens to be my oldest son, Preston, and, you know, it's really awesome. We've told you we have four children and two boys and two girls and it's really amazing to really enjoy all of your adult kids. This is-- And be so proud of all of them. It's been such a cool thing to experience friendship with your grown kids. I've kind of pinch ourselves how wonderful this experience is. Okay. I could go on and on and on about that, but Preston has been on a very fascinating journey of moving to Nashville ten years ago. Can you believe that?

[Preston]: Wow.

[Brent]: Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

[Preston]: Yeah, for sure.

[Brent]: And Preston is a pastor. He's actually an ordained priest and in the-- What we say Anglican tradition.

[Preston]: Yeah.

[Brent]: Is that kind of the appropriate way to say it?

[Preston]: That's, right? Yeah.

[Brent]: And so, it's been just a kind of planted church there. Been doing life there and one of my other sons is actually over in Nashville, his wife as well and so, we get to Nashville quite a bit. We got to know that city a little bit. But we just thought it would be appropriate, he's here in Tulsa for the weekend, and we thought it'd be appropriate to just talk about some of the things that we're seeing.

[Preston]: Yeah, yeah.

[Brent]: Just with people that go through kind of new adventures, new opportunities. We thought we'd talk a little bit about what it's like to be in the church world in today's culture.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: Maybe talk a little bit about pandemic. Well, who knows where we’re gonna go here.

[Preston]: It’s interesting. Yeah.

[Brent]: And so-- But we thought we'd jump in. So, I thought maybe talk a little bit about what was it like to go to a place you-- I mean, it's not like you knew a bunch of people in Nashville.

[Preston]: Right, right.

[Brent]: It's like “okay, I'm going to go over there, and these people are having me come over and start this thing”. But you felt led to go to that part of the world and knew that this is-- We knew since you were five, I think, that this is what you were going to do with your life. But it was, again, a new thing, but a big thing to take your wife and new little baby to Nashville.

[Preston]: Yeah, yeah.

[Brent]: So, maybe talk about that, kind of the ups and downs and ins and outs of that, maybe just what that's been like.

[Preston]: Yes. Well, thank you so much, and I am really glad to be here. I am sorry that you don't get Janis Sharp today because she is the best.

[Brent]: She’s the best; we all say she is the best.

[Preston]: Yeah. So, I'm kind of the pinch hitter today, but I'm thankful to be here and I have to say that I am a longtime listener, first time caller. So, I have listened regularly. I love what you guys are doing. I'm so thankful that so many people--

[Brent]: You have been listening to us for all of your life.

[Preston]: You pay me well, but no, no. No, I really have enjoyed these podcasts so much and just thankful that so many more people get to hear what you guys are doing, because of course, we've heard you in seminars and in church and talking to us throughout the years and so, I love the concept of this podcast of being able to have for posterity for years and years and years for this to go on, and then for so many people to get to hear you, and you've done such a phenomenal job and so, I'm thankful for this and then also, I have to say that I get asked all the time what it's like to be raised by Brent and Janis Sharp. Like, the superheroes of relationships, and it really is wonderful. I mean, it’s just such a blessing and you guys are-- I'm thankful that you guys are exactly who you are in both public and behind the scenes, and that's just something we don't see in leaders very often and so, such a joy to be here today and to share a little bit. So, yeah.

[Brent]: Now that you've read the script, gotten all of that detail out there, now you can go on.

[Preston]: Yeah. So, about ten years ago, my wife Ashley, and our at that time two-month-old daughter Lucy, moved from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to Nashville, Tennessee, to plant a church. We were so excited and are so thankful for this opportunity that we've had and getting to live in Nashville. It was a season of real change in our lives. Of course, had a new baby. I was serving as an associate pastor here in Tulsa alongside you and had so much support from the church here in blessing us and sending us. We had a real environment of grace that supported us and undergirded us as we were sent, and part of it was just a general sense from us and from our leaders that it was time for us to step out on a new adventure. To be lead pastor somewhere and to start something new and you're right that I've known that I was supposed to be a pastor since I was five years old and known clearly and actually, one of the reasons why I think we've been able to weather some of the challenges that we've faced in this new adventure.

[Brent]: It hasn't been incredibly smooth and perfect and all just gone easy the whole time?

[Preston]: I think that's a different podcast where I shared that side of it, right?

[Brent]: Okay, okay.

[Preston]: This one I can say that's a little bumpy at times. But yah, being able to, you know, weather some of those things was knowing clearly that that's what I was called to do.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: You know, really knowing that.

[Brent]: Sense of purpose. Yeah.

[Preston]: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, we moved out. You know, people always ask “why Nashville?”. I was raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My wife was raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We didn't necessarily have a place that we were like “yeah, that's the place we've got to go to”. But we had some good friends in Nashville. In fact, when I got ready to move, I had a friend call me and say “hey, you need to come to Nashville”. He lived there, real close friend of mine, “and plant a church here” and at that time, the only thing I knew about Nashville is there were a lot of churches in Nashville.

[Brent]: Right.

[Preston]: And I just came from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and there's a lot of churches here too and so, I said “oh, Nashville doesn't need another church”. But there's a neighborhood in Nashville, or a series of neighborhoods in East Nashville that I was told was just growing rapidly and a lot of people had questions about faith and disillusioned with faith, and for some reason or another, those have been the folks I've always been drawn to.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: And so, we felt like “we're going to plant and we're going to plant in East Nashville” and anytime you step out and do something new, there's always-- Especially if you really believe, and I do believe to this day that we're being obedient to the voice of God. There's always this sense of kind of empowerment that goes with you and excitement that goes with you. It's kind of like when you guys talk about in marriage, how a couple when they first start dating, like all their-- You know, there's just so much chemistry I'm going to totally miss--

[Brent]: That you’re smitten and so--

[Preston]: Exactly, yeah.

[Brent]: But there's a power. There's like, an intoxication that happens right in that, and that life's going to be amazing, right? So, that could be in a new adventure, whether it's planting a church or starting a new business or whatever. We all have that initial phase where it's really exciting.

[Preston]: Yeah, and so, we felt all of those feelings, super empowered and excited about all of this and then also, getting to live in a new city. We had lived a little far out from Tulsa at the time when we were here in a suburb, and we moved to Nashville, we've got an apartment right in the center of the city, and we could walk to all the things that we wanted to walk to and really became urban church planters. Some of the listeners may know that about ten years ago or so, there was a big movement to plant more churches, and it's still happening in some sense. But about ten years ago, it was at its peak. It's going “let's just plant as many churches as we possibly can, and especially in big cities” and so, that was part of our impulse in doing that. We also went through a very intense church planting training where they did a psychological evaluation. I had to give all these presentations. They really analyzed us and picked us apart so much and then came out with a strong seal of approval at the end of that and so, we moved to Nashville and really was such an exciting time and then also, really started to connect with some people that we had really hoped to connect with and began to see life and people who hadn't been involved in church for a long time, connecting in church in a lot of ways and so, that was kind of the initial thing that happened as we moved in that direction.

[Brent]: And you moved to a part of town, you said, that people had doubts and questions and so, there are certainly parts of town you could have moved to where everybody goes to church.

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: And this is the thing, and it would have been easier to have “grown” and felt successful and so forth. But you went to some fairly difficult ground as far as building a church, right?

[Preston]: Yes, totally. Yeah.

[Brent]: People are not used to it and don't even really think they want to do this, right? And so, that had to be wonderful because that's what you're so good at, in helping people, accepting people. So, respected doing that, accepting people where they're at and not tell them how they're supposed to be.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: Even dealing with people that have doubt, which we always say is part of faith, you know?

[Preston]: That's right. That’s right.

[Brent]: It's not fact, it's faith and so, doubt, getting comfortable with that, letting people ask questions, really important stuff.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: Not necessarily how do you build the biggest church as fast as we can, right? And so, talk about that a little bit.

[Preston]: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we went in and I even remember-- It feels silly now, but I remember going in and going “well, you know, we don't want to plant a megachurch. That's not our dream. So, when we get to a few hundred people, then we're going to want to split and have another church and so, we'll have multiple parishes and locations” and I remember kind of feeling that way and just feeling like “yeah, that's the way that it's going to go” and little did we know that-- Well, we should have known that when you move into a part of town that is pretty resistant towards church, people might not want to go to church.

[Brent]: [Unintelligible]

[Preston]: So, I remember one of the outside organizations that was so wonderful and worked with us, they had a certain formula of marketing your church and so, they gave us thousands of dollars to try to send out these mailers, these little cards in the mail and they had a certain way they needed to be designed and they wanted them sent out and I remember feeling some tension about it, because this kind of mailers and the way they wanted to do it didn't quite feel like us. It felt a little bit market, you know? And that kind of thing and yet, I was like “well, I guess this is the way we're supposed to do it”.

[Preston]: And so, we went ahead and sent them out and what they said is, you need to send the same mailer out five weeks in a row to the same house.

[Brent]: Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Preston]: So, I was like “okay, that's fine. If that's what you feel like we need to do, then I guess we'll do it” and so, they paid for it and so, then we sent it all out and oh my gosh, the hate responses that we got from people.

[Brent]: Oh no.

[Preston]: I mean, I remember our post office box going back and there was stuffed in there with just angry notes on them and “don't ever send to me again!” and all this stuff and then, particularly one person got it and our church was always interesting because our church has always leaned into the historic tradition and the sacraments of the church. So, communion and baptism and the Apostles Creed, saying the history of the church and all that stuff, and our name was Sacrament and yet, I always felt this tension between that, those things, and then the things that kind of seemed shiny that you're supposed to do as a church planter, right? So, one person got our mailer and our church's name was Sacrament and they got on a blog and they wrote all about how our name didn't match at all with what our mailer looked like, and we look like we're just trying to be everybody else and you know, every other thing and just trying to sell something to them and yet, your name means something different.

[Preston]: And even though that person was very mean, very harsh and shouldn't have written that, she was naming some of the tension that I was feeling myself.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: And some of that was, what does it mean to really be successful? What does it mean to be a presence, god's presence in a neighborhood? What does it mean to be the church? These kinds of things. What is a church plant or you know, a neighborhood parish? That's kind of the old word for it, where you'd have a church in a neighborhood for a specific neighborhood and, what does that really mean? And that began to tug at me a little bit and then when we started, I thought we'd have hundreds of people coming and it was more like, few dozens of people coming.

[Brent]: Right, right.

[Preston]: And we started to go “okay, this might look different” and it took me a while to get to figuring that out and took me some wrestling in my own soul, but that was some of what was going on with us at that time.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. That's not the easiest thing to do, you know? And so, you use the word success on what success means and so, we think, gosh, going to plan a church or again, people in all their different circumstances, going in starting a new business or starting a new job and a new company or whatever, then we think of success as, we have these certain parameters in our culture that would say this is what being successful is.

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, how did that start stretching you and challenging you on what success means?

[Preston]: Yeah. Well, at least I think, you guys did a series on the Enneagram recently and I think I'm an Enneagram Three and I've always had this kind of--

[Brent]: Which is the need to [Unintelligible] successful.

[Preston]: Be successful, yes.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: Always

[Brent]: Yeah. So, not only do we live in this world that is very performance driven and oriented. I mean, we were raised in this since we were little kids. I mean, all of us.

[Preston]: Yeah, that’s right.

[Brent]: Just the schools we've gone to.

[Preston]: Yes, that's right.

[Brent]: You know, show us real quick a's and B's and C's and we know which ones are better and blue ribbons and red ribbons and yellow ribbons and you know, we know what gets your name in the program at the end of the year, and teachers are happy with you and all that kind of stuff and so, we have been bathed in all of that and then, we try to connect that to church, you know?

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: And what successful church planting looks like, you know? And if you go to most church conferences, and this could be true in any organization. You know, the first question people ask you is “well, how many are you running?”

[Preston]: Right. Exactly, right.

[Brent]: Right? Which tells us real quick “oh, that's what successful people do”.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: Anyway. So, just talk about all that.

[Preston]: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah and you know, of course you know my story. But when-- You know, I said before that I felt called to be a pastor at five years old, felt really clearly and never really felt anything different. Just always felt that really clearly, but also was always in front. You know, as a little kid, I was always performing in talent shows and--

[Brent]: Yeah, you’re clearly really good at it.

[Preston]: Winning competitions and you know, all these kinds of things, and people applaud at that stuff.

[Brent]: Oh my gosh, yes.

[Preston]: And then you kind of seem special when you've done that. Just like you talked about the red ribbons and blue ribbons and stuff and so, you start to kind of internalize and I would say this that, you know, this is helpful because I've carried this wound about performance. But you might think “well, you were raised by the most wonderful people or relationship experts on the planet” and I think what this helps us with is even those of us that come from just wonderful families, because we live in a broken world, we carry wounds. We all do, every one of us and so, for me this sense of performance, I didn't even know that was there as much until the church planting thing began to bring this to the surface.

[Brent]: And I would say, as mom and dad, because we were aware of the difficulty of performance issues in all of our lives. So, we really tried really hard.

[Preston]: Oh yeah, you did.

[Brent]: Not to groom you that direction.

[Preston]: Oh, yes. Oh my gosh.

[Brent]: But as you're saying, because I tell people, you know, I was raised in a really healthy family, I thought too.

[Preston]: Right

[Brent]: Wonderful parents and yet, we really can still struggle with this because we do live in this broken world that we get a lot of our sense of self from-- We've been trained as little people from how I perform and how well I perform, and then what people think of me, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, we learn pretty quickly to craft our life in a way that gets enough feedback from those places to feel good about ourselves and it can just get all really confusing.

[Preston]: Yes, totally, and what I would say is even looking back, the only way I was able to-- I say I was able as if I've crossed some sort of hurdle. We're all still wrestling with our wounds and struggling. The only way I ever was able to perceive any perspective on this is going back to the unconditional love that I experienced with you guys. If I had not experienced that, I'd just be driving myself crazy and not able to get any perspective on this. So, I had this constant wrestling in my life between “here's what good church planters are supposed to do and how they're supposed to perform and what it's supposed to look like” and then also what I really was feeling like, in my soul, pastoring is and being a presence is and I loved-- I mean, even when we had times where it felt like very few people were coming to church, I loved gathering the people of God, I loved serving communion and preaching the gospel and all these things and so, that thing in my soul was there and felt right, but always wrestled with that tension. The thing that helped me name that tension and it's going to be a different thing for each person depending on your field.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: But for me, it was the works of a guy named Eugene Peterson and he wrote-- Many know him because he translated the message version of the Bible.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah.

[Preston]: But he's written a lot of books on the contemplative life, on prayer, on being the people of God, and he's written some books on being a pastor. One of his books is called The Pastor. It's just a series of essays about his life and he basically talks about “here's what we've been taught being a pastor is” and it's this entrepreneurial CEO like, you know, running this big organization, trying to get it really big, all about numbers and he says “but here's really what being a pastor is” and it's so much about listening for the voice of God in the middle of a group of people and naming that, and that's simply what it is.

[Preston]: And I think in so many of our different lives, as I describe that tension, I think especially people in different creative fields feel that kind of tension, because like a lot of my musician friends, for example, will say “well, I'm being told I just got to market myself like, a lot” and there's a certain level you have to do that. I got to get my name out there. I got to play the game, I got to network, I got to do all these things. But they're also like “but I just kind of like writing music. I like singing, and that's emerging from me” and so, at some point we have to be able to go “we live in a broken world and there are certain things that are just part of that, but there really is a voice we need to be listening for of, how is God speaking to me here and now? What is God doing right now in my midst than where I am?” and gosh, at the moments when I've been able to reframe that in my life and go “okay, this is not success. This actually might be more like it”. In fact, I don't really use the word success very much anymore; that's just most helpful to me. But this is most loving, this is most present. When I'm able to say that and lean into that, gosh, I just really am able to enjoy what I'm doing and what I've always loved to do and that's pastoring people.

[Brent]: Yeah, and so, we find when we're kind of following after that, which we'd call kind of kingdom of man principle, which is your values based on how well you perform and what people think of you according to these metrics of our culture, that even those that seem like it keeps-- Things do go by the formula and it grows. Oftentimes we find that people with successful businesses or making a lot of money or churches blow up or whatever, still find themselves a bit frustrated and disenchanted.

[Preston]: That's right. That's right.

[Brent]: We find people that we think that “oh my gosh, you should be the happiest people on the planet”, you know? And yet, they slip off into some counterfeits or unhealthy ways to deal with life and it's like “what happened there?”, you know?

[Preston]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, if we do find ourselves following one of those pathways that isn't ultimately where we get a sense of fulfillment or sense from, which we're suggesting would be from who we've been created to be.

[Preston]: That’s right.

[Brent]: That God puts an intrinsic value in us, that we're not performing for the world to do that and that that's really where we're going to find a sense of joy and peace, you know? And so, you say you don't use the word success. I actually don't either because I have people say a lot of, you know, “oh gosh, this guy, he's got this business, he's so successful” and I have-- Because I've been doing counseling for 40 years, I usually don't say that word anymore. I go “that guy makes a lot of money”.

[Preston]: Yeah, right. Name what it is, yeah.

[Brent]: Because oftentimes what we would consider success, they might not feeling full success now.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: There's a bunch of people that make a lot of money and are successful. [Unintelligible]

[Preston]: Sure. Yeah.

[Brent]: They can't have both, okay? But we're talking about a whole different way of thinking about where our sense of value comes from.

[Preston]: That's right.

[Brent]: So, you've bumped into that.

[Preston]: Yes.

[Brent]: Sounds like and--

[Preston]: Well, and it helps us hold worldly success loosely and we can still be thankful for it when it comes. So, if someone gets a bonus at work, it's not us saying “oh, I can't celebrate that because that's the way of the world”, you know?

[Brent]: The kingdom of men.

[Preston]: Yeah, no. We can go “Lord, thank you for that. That's a blessing”.

[Brent]: We know where it comes from.

[Preston]: Yeah. I think about-- I'm a big NBA fan, and Kevin Durant, at the end of one of the championships, Golden State won. He was member of Golden State Warriors and the one that he was with them at the end of the finals, he was asked “how do you feel? You finally got over the hump. You finally did this” and he said “it wasn't what I thought it would be”.

[Brent]: Interesting.

[Preston]: He said it felt different. “I mean, I'm happy about it, but I couldn’t--” He said “I've chased it my whole life, but it's just not-- I'm not quite fulfilled with it” and his coach, Steven Kerr said “yeah, I felt bad for him because it seemed like something was still missing after we did that”.

[Brent]: That’s interesting.

[Preston]: And you just think about how we chase and chase and chase things in our lives, and then sometimes we get it, you know? But that doesn't necessarily mean we often find that that thing in and of itself is not-- Isn’t ultimately fulfilling to us.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: I think it's one of the reasons why Jesus gave such strong warnings to the rich. It's not that being rich in and of itself is bad, but gosh, if that's your ultimate identity in the final place where you put everything in, you're going to find that that's not going to do it.

[Brent]: Yeah, and sometimes the reason I-- You know, I would suggest the love of money is the challenge, you know? Is that money does give you a sense of more control in life.

[Preston]: Yeah, that’s right.

[Brent]: And so, it gives us this sense that “I can almost be a bit Godlike. I can provide my own happiness; I can provide my own fulfillment by doing these things. I don't have to depend on anybody else. I can be independent”, which that seems to be our greatest challenge, is when we slip into this sense of independence and thinking “I can do it myself, I can go out and get it” and money just gives us the ability to kind of do that more and not be as dependent on the source where the money comes from in the first place and so, again, that's how we can kind of get off track.

[Preston]: Yes. Oh, it's so good.

[Brent]: You know? So, I mean, there’s so many thinking about so many different directions right now. I'm trying to reel this in and not do much here in this first session. I think if you're willing, we'll come back again and do a part two of this. But the-- So, if-- So, we've talked about some of the kind of anticipation, some of the ups, some of the downs are that-- How would you describe that? Some of the downs?

[Preston]: Yeah. Gosh, every situation is unique and I think pastors, it's difficult when you talk about pastors have a difficult job, and when you say that because it's kind of loaded, okay, we have a difficult job, but yet it's not difficult in the same way as somebody doing like, crisis management triage at a hospital. Like, that's a different kind of thing. You know, it's a different experience. So, this is not a “woe, is me”, you know, pastors have it really hard kind of thing. It's just hard in a different way.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: But one of the things that we do, and it's really tough if you carry-- Which most pastors do carry some sort of performance with them, is not only when people don't come to church or don't participate in church, but there's also the challenges of when people choose to move on from the church, and I've talked to so many pastors in my life, and this is the moment that's the most painful. That just hits, it's just so hard, is when people give you that call or that email or whatever and say “hey, I'm moving on to a different church” or “we've moved to the suburbs and bought a house out there and so, we're too far away from church and all of that”, and you learn to-- You know, I've talked to some veteran pastors and said “so, over time you build calluses, right? And you start to kind of--”, you know? And they say “no, it's always hard” and then some of them have said “it's hard when you grow to a megachurch and somebody calls that”. You know, it's just really challenging. Hard not to take it personally. You know, it's really challenging.

[Preston]: And then we've had some challenges and we'll talk about this more in the future, I think, in relation to the pandemic, because that changed everything.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Preston]: Oh my gosh. But we've had some even just waves within our church where it seems like all at once with a small church, everybody leaves at the same time, and then a whole new group comes in and you go “okay, how is this working?”. But one of the things I keep going back to is God was always faithful to us. It always seemed like-- And Ashley and I looked at each other. We look at each other every few years. I remember when we moved out there and we said “we'll give these five years, we'll give our whole heart into it and see what happens” and then after five years, it's like “gosh, some people are still coming to the church” and it's here and we love it. It's not exactly what we thought it would be, but it's better in a different way because you start to really do life with people and see church in kind of a different perspective.

[Preston]: And so, God has always been faithful to us. There's always been enough for us to take the next step and then the next step, and that's one thing I'd go back to. I was reading-- I'll close with this; I was reading Genesis today. Genesis, chapter twelve and God calls Abraham and he says “hey, I'm going to bless you. I'm going to make you a great nation and you're going to bless the nations of the world” and it says “and Abraham did what he said”. This is all as simple as it is; he obeyed. Didn't do anything else dramatic, he just did what he said and then a few verses later, that's verse four and then verse eight says “he built an altar to the Lord” and I felt like there's this sense of obedience is doing what the Lord said and then honoring him as God. That's really what we're all called to do.

[Brent]: Yeah, regardless of the results at the moment.

[Preston]: Regardless. Letting go of the results.

[Brent]: That's not up to us actually, right?

[Preston]: Right. That's right.

[Brent]: Okay. Well, thanks. So many other different things I want to talk about, and we're going to get back to it here in just a few minutes. But for now, we trust that maybe what you've heard here, some of you are going through different kind of situations, some of you are going through maybe some new beginnings. Maybe you're going through some excitements of some new things. Some of you may have hit some difficult things and we're going to keep talking about this and, how do we move through these waters of life?

[Brent]: I think we're kind of referencing pastors because that's kind of what you do. We just retired from 40 years of that and so-- But wherever you find yourself and we also might talk a little bit about, how do you-- If you're even in a church, how do you deal with and care for your pastors that may be going through stuff that you don't even know about? But for now, hold on to this. Blessings as you go today. Go in peace.