Grief: Step #3 of Recovering from Betrayal (Love, Lies and Betrayal • Part 4) Episode 37

Brent and Janis continue looking at the pathway to healing and restoration from a betrayal. They discuss some of the action steps from Stage 1 and 2 that were introduced in the last podcast and look at grief in the context of the loss of trust and safety that happen in betrayal.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

The podcast is produced by Clayton Creative in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The content should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

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Transcript:

[Brent]: Good morning, friends. Welcome back to Life & Love. Nuggets. We've been working on this series we're going to continue today called Love, Lies and Betrayal, and what happens when betrayal happens in significant relationships. We've been primarily focusing on marriage, with affairs and so forth, but these principles really can relate to friendships, sibling, parent, business partner. All people have been felt like they've been betrayed in some ways and so, listen in on some of these principles that are really critical to help heal and bring about wholeness and so, after looking at the kind of prerequisites of healing to happen, we started last time looking at what we consider the two first key stages of healing. There's four of them that we're going to talk about and we looked at the first two, we called them The Blank Check and then The Bathtub of Trust.

[Brent]: So, after The Bathtub of Trust, we kind of left giving the betrayed and the betrayer some homework to do, to lead us into some significant next steps of healing and so, these are critical for trust to really be able to be rebuilt. The first one, we ask the betrayer to make a list of the emotions that we believe that they caused their partner to feel. What damage do you believe that you caused? Whether it's feelings of being betrayed, hurt, not good enough. I mean, oftentimes I have people come up with dozens of these things when they start really thinking about it, that these are the emotions that they've caused their partner to feel and we found that this is critical because of the need for empathy. That if the betrayed doesn't really think that the betrayer gets it, if they feel like that, they're minimizing it anyway, then why would they not do it again?

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: If they really understand the devastation that this caused, then maybe there's a chance they won't do it again.

[Janis]: Yeah. Empathy from the betrayer is key in this whole healing process and-- Good morning. The exercise that we're talking about really helps build empathy from the betrayer, so that the betrayed can feel like they get it. Now, that's hard because a betrayer oftentimes is so-- They're dealing so much with their own emotions, they're devastated in their own way, they're grieving in their own way.

[Brent]: They feel horrible. They feel like they're a dirty, rotten scoundrel and they're struggling with that and need to feel better about themselves. But this has got to happen first.

[Janis]: Yeah, and so, it makes it harder for them to do it. But it really is critical that the betrayer takes a look at each of the emotions that they believe the betrayed is feeling. It's trying to get inside their skin and go “how did they feel by this particular thing happening?” and so, we encourage them to think back of a time in their life when they may have experienced some of the same emotions that their partner is feeling now. Now, we have to make sure that they don't go back to something that their partner did.

[Brent]: Yes. Right. Has nothing to do with their partner.

[Janis]: Nothing to do with them.

[Brent]: Think about-- This is childhood, this is growing up, high school.

[Janis]: Yeah. So, maybe even something in high school where they were with a group of friends, and all of a sudden, they found out that somebody in the group started spreading lies about them or were making up stories and it's, how did you feel in that particular situation where the people that you trusted or you counted on as being really close to you, did something like this?

[Brent]: Yeah. So, I have them imagine go back-- Most of us, if we stop and thought about it, can remember what our high school looks like. I remember the smell, you know? I remember what the cafeteria looked like and so, if betrayal was one of those, and they had somebody that, you know, a group that started spreading rumors about them or something, I have them think back on what the day felt like when they walked into the cafeteria the day after and their group used to sit right over here. We all used to sit together, and when I would walk in, they would all be kind of waving at me and say “come on”, you know? And the day I walked in, and all of a sudden, they're sitting on the opposite side of the cafeteria and won't even look at me.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: And I feel like everybody's staring at me, and I have felt betrayed. To spend a few minutes feeling that and let that experience soak in a little bit and realize that I've caused my partner to feel that like, times ten.

[Janis]: At least.

[Brent]: Or times fifty.

[Janis]: Right.

[Brent]: What does that feel like? Now, the purpose of this is not-- I always tell the betrayer “The purpose of this is not just to cause you to have a really horrible day”. We're not trying to rub salt in the wound.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: But there's something about relating to that pain that helps the other person, first of all “Okay, they're getting it. They understand it”. But also, it helps them the next time they might be tempted.

[Janis]: Yeah.

[Brent]: “Oh my gosh. I cause them to feel that. I don't want them to ever feel that again” and so, I encourage them to go through this with each of those feelings, the whole list that they might come up with, and have a situation for each of them. Now, I tell people “you might have two or three feelings on the same situation. So, there might be something about the cafeteria day that you felt betrayed along with a couple of other things. That’s fine”.

[Janis]: Felt humiliated.

[Brent]: Yes, and so-- But they come up with a scenario for each of those, and then I ask them “just get some time by yourself and go through each of those and go back to those moments and we're basically saying ‘Lord, help me get it. Help me to understand what I've done here and help me go back and feel those feelings for a few minutes’” and then at some point, we encourage them to sit down with their partner and I always say “You know, whatever words you would use, however you would do that, but you would say something like ‘I realize that this is a list of feelings that I came up with. First of all, we need to hold this very tentative. I may not know exactly what you feel, but these are the things that I think I caused you to feel. If there's other ones that I don't even know about, I want to know that and so, please let me know. But I think I caused you to feel betrayed, and I went back to a situation where I felt betrayed here, and I felt that feeling for a bit and the fact that I caused you to feel that, I am so sorry’” and then they go to the next one, you know, that you felt humiliated, and “I remember feeling humiliated in this situation, and I am so sorry”. Again, another opportunity for confession and repentance and apology, which can't really do enough of that and they kind of walk through that and at the end, basically commit that “I'm committing my life to live in a way that I would never cause you to feel those feelings again”. Now, this is not magic. I tell people “don't expect that they're-- Anything from them”. I don't expect that they're going to go “Oh, wow, I really forgive you now”. No, no, no.

[Janis]: “I'll never doubt you again”. That’s not going to happen.

[Brent]: Yeah, and actually, I tell people “you need to maybe prepare yourself for them to say “That was a good try. I don't think you'll ever understand”. The betrayer has to be ready to go “well, you're probably right. There's no way I could ever feel this, but I want to and I hope that one of these days, that you'll know that I really do care and I'm sorry, and I'm committed to never doing it again”. You can't make a person forgive you, but you can till the soil that allows them to be able to make that choice eventually and to move into forgiveness and this is one of those things, one of those steps that we found can be really helpful in that process.

[Janis]: And it really is a process. It's not an instantaneous thing. When we're hurt, all of us harden our hearts. It's “boy, I never want to feel that again. I never want to go through that again” and so, our heart tends to get hardened, and it always reminds me of, which is appropriate this time of year, Oklahoma dirt in August, when it's been 105°.

[Brent]: Out in the country. Yes.

[Janis]: Out in the country, out in the field, where it's not watered anywhere and if you pour water on that, it just rolls right off of it.

[Brent]: That’s good. That’s good.

[Janis]: It goes down between the cracks, and nothing happens. But if you continue to sprinkle and sprinkle and sprinkle until the ground can be churned up enough, then something happens, and this is what we're talking about. It's not just this one-time thing, which is huge, but we can't expect that one-time thing to fix it. It's got to be we do this the first time, and then we, as days go on, go “man, I was just thinking about how you felt betrayed. I'm so sorry that you felt that. I never, ever want you to feel that again”. So, it helps the betrayed feel like the betrayer gets it and that they're willing to do what's necessary to really bring the healing.

[Brent]: Yeah, it really-- Yeah, it can really make a difference. Again, obviously the heart of the betrayer has to be “I'm just willing to do whatever”. The second exercise was for the betrayed, we had them make a list of things that make them nervous. I call this a nervous list, okay?

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: What makes you nervous about trust and whether you can really trust them or not? And so, I have people come up with all kind of things, you know? A lot of times, it has something to do with their phone, their email, unaccounted for time, all kind of stuff and I have them make a list of those, and then we simply ask the betrayer and there's a reason why I go to the betrayer first. I don't say the betrayed “now, what do you need them to do?”, okay? Because you can't control another person's behavior, they have to choose that, but you can say your need and then I look to the betrayer and say “what are you willing to offer? What can you do to help whatever is humanly possible to help them feel safe?”. Again, we have to realize that betrayal, broken trust is traumatic and just like any other trauma, a person needs to be seen, they need to be understood that this is real, why they would be nervous about this. They need to feel safe. They need to feel soothed and secure.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, an example of this is I had one situation where a husband worked in an office setting and had other young women working for him, and he was just taking a different one out for lunch, like long lunches, okay? To hotels and stuff and well, you can imagine the wife's like, freaking out over what's happening on the lunch hour.

[Janis]: You're never going to lunch again.

[Brent]: Exactly. Now, she couldn't go-- In their situation, they had little kids. She couldn't go sit in his office all day and watch him and so, what he was willing to do is he said “I will only go to lunch, first of all with you, honey, my wife or Joe in my office. You know Joe, he knows the whole situation” and she felt safe with Joe. “If Joe and I go to lunch, then I'll have Joe text you each time and say ‘hey, he's with me. Everything's okay’”. This guy did this for like, a year and a half, until she began to feel safe that she could see change. She knew eventually in her heart that “this is okay” and so, we try to do that with each of these things and again, the more the betrayer is willing to do. Now, this can be difficult sometimes because it's like “I've got to do a whole bunch of extra stuff. Almost feel like I'm being controlled here a little bit”. Well, this is one of the consequences of breaking somebody's trust, is that it's going to be uncomfortable for a while. So, that's one of the things we recommend.

[Janis]: Yeah, and it's so important that the couple works together on this.

[Brent]: Yes.

[Janis]: You know, the betrayed can't say “well, you should just know what makes me uncomfortable”.

[Brent]: Absolutely.

[Janis]: They have to be honest with what is making them uncomfortable, and they have to work together on it and of course, they have to always remember that trust is earned and it takes time after time of trustworthy behavior to help the betrayed feel safe again and to feel confident in their relationship.

[Brent]: Absolutely. I have a lot of people that end up putting some apps on their phone, 360 or find my phone, all those kinds of things that says “hey, you can see where I'm at. I'll let you know when I'm going to run errands and you can see. If I say I'm going to go to Lowe's. If you need to, you can go on your phone and see ‘is he actually at Lowe's?’” and boy, that has really been helpful. The idea is things like this need to be done until the betrayed says “you don't really need to do that anymore. I'm okay with this”. This is why it takes this attitude of, I'm willing to do whatever it takes as long as it takes.

[Janis]: And it's hard because the person who betrayed their spouse lied.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: They said they were someplace and they weren't and so, oftentimes they'll go “well, just trust me. I said I was going to Lowe's” and the other one is saying “but I trusted you, that you were at work before”.

[Brent]: Yeah, “how could I possibly trust you right now?”

[Janis]: And so, it is hard. It's hard for both of them, but it really is necessary to say-- To build that trust and to know you are where you said you were.

[Brent]: And that's the thing about trust, is that sometimes “now I don't trust you with lots of things”.

[Janis]: Right.

[Brent]: “And we don't even know whether I can trust you with those things or not. But my mind's going to think ‘I really can't trust you with hardly anything now’”.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: One of the number one things that obviously we see show up over and over and over in this. I'm sure you do, I certainly do. Is phones, email, these amazing little devices that are wonderful and amazing, and what would we do without them? We carry the knowledge of the universe in our pockets every day. But they're also dangerous and they also can allow communication to happen in secret and even without intention initially, that allows a person to get snared and so, because these items are wonderful and dangerous at the same time, we encourage all couples to live very transparent with all of these devices. I mean, in a marriage, I think we ought to all know each other's password. We ought to be free. If you pick up my phone, I should [Unintelligible] “Go look at it. Whatever you need to do”.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: I always tell people we should not be communicating to someone or saying something to someone or sending somebody something, that if our partner was not sitting right next to us watching the whole thing, they would feel comfortable with. If we're doing stuff that they wouldn't be at peace with, then we have no business doing this and so, we see that so often in these, is it just this opening up of all aspects, this absolute transparency is critical and we think that's just healthy, period. That helps keep couples safe.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: Even couples that haven't had this experience, it keeps them safe from it happening and so, no one wants to be checking out their partner's phone; that's a horrible feeling. “I've got to go check up on them all the time”. But I tell the betrayed or the betrayer, I say “if you can offer this, and say ‘look at my phone whenever’, and I'm actually out cutting the grass right now and you're a little nervous about maybe something happened yesterday, and I allow and say ‘go look at it’ and I tell the betrayed ‘go look at it every once in a while’ and if you look at it and there's nothing inappropriate in the communication or locations or whatever, then we just put a teaspoon in the bathtub” and I tell the betrayer “you just put a teaspoon in their bathtub and you didn't know what happened”.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: You just left. Created an opportunity for trust these teaspoons to get put in there constantly. Because I tell people “you're not limited to one teaspoon a day or a week. It's how do we become double fisted teaspoon [Unintelligible]?”. Well, this is one of the ways and eventually, it will come where the betrayed doesn't need to do that anymore. But we encourage them to do it as long as they need to do it and so, there is a reason why we ask the betrayer first, you know? The betrayed says “this is what I need, this is what makes me nervous”. Then we ask the betrayer “what are you willing to do?” and then the key is working together and usually we have to kind of work on that a little bit until they can get real clear exactly what they're going to do and how they're going to do it. But if they can work together as a team, the best healing is teamwork and so, this allows that opportunity.

[Janis]: And the betrayed really has to be specific. I know they're like "well, they should know this already. I shouldn't have to give them the specifics”, but they really have to be specific about what it is that makes them uncomfortable. So, you may not think anything about taking your phone into the bathroom or getting off a call quickly when your spouse comes in the room, but if you have had an affair, if they feel that betrayal, those are going to be things that trigger them. Even if they're totally innocent and there's nothing to do with that, it still can be a problem and so, that's where the betrayer needs to really be cautious of those kinds of things and really ask them “okay, did you react that way because that triggered you somehow?” and again, the betrayed has the responsibility to let them know “yeah, that makes me really uncomfortable. Could you please leave your phone out here?”.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, collaborating, again, we encourage couples “learn each other”. To the betrayer “learn your partner”. What it is that they need, what makes them nervous. The more you can learn from them in that way and the more empathy you have for their circumstances. I've had people go “wow, I had no idea that that would make them nervous. That they thought because I was just in a store a little bit longer, that they thought I was calling the person or maybe had set up a meeting with them. I wouldn't even have thought of that”.

[Janis]: Or “I was on my way to Lowe's and decided to go to Home Depot instead and so, I went off course and they happened to see me in between those two on 360 and panicked”.

[Brent]: Yeah, we always tell the betrayal “you could not over communicate during this time”.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: Again, do over communicate. What feels like over communication to you, that “hey, text your--” Person say “hey, I've decided to go to a Home Depot instead of Lowe's” until the person says “hey, you don't need to do that anymore. I really trust you”.

[Janis]: And it won't be forever. It will feel like forever sometimes, and it'll be longer than you want it to be, but eventually it will get better.

[Brent]: Yeah. When you're putting teaspoons in bathtub, it feels like it will be forever, but it'll fill up.

[Janis]: Yeah.

[Brent]: Another stage, our third stage, really is grief. Betrayal is like a death that has happened. “I thought life looked like this and I could trust my partner and we had this in our life and these were all the goods and I found out that's not true. I found its way down here someplace” and the difference is like a death. It's the loss of the perception of what was and we did a whole section on grief and we talked about that. Most grief in our life is the loss of an ideal or the loss of a dream; this is in that category. “I felt loved and valued and now that is not true” and so, the person is going to experience-- The betrayed is going to experience the same kind of emotions they would if they had a close loved one die and there's no way around this. It is a huge death in their life and these things need to be grieved.

[Janis]: Yeah, and what I talked about last time was something like this causes the betrayed to really rethink everything.

[Brent]: Yes, for sure.

[Janis]: They look back at the past and they go “gosh, when I thought we were such a great family sitting there at our daughter's wedding, he was having an affair the whole time” or “when we were sitting in the stands watching our son play football, that guy that was two rows down every time we went is a person that she was sleeping with”. I mean, it causes them to really rethink everything and that's painful.

[Brent]: Yeah, for sure and again, people can go back to our podcast that we did on grief to get a lot of the detail of this, but it's worth sharing a few things that are unique to this situation and to kind of even restate a few things.

[Janis]: Well, don't you think most people don't think of it as grief?

[Brent]: I think that’s right.

[Janis]: Sometimes when I'm working with couples and I'll go “well, you're grieving” and they'll be like “What?”

[Brent]: All right

[Janis]: “Yeah, you lost something important to you and so, you're grieving”.

[Brent]: Yeah, it causes a lot of people-- Because again, they just think “well, that's if somebody dies”, you know? And they don't realize that most grief is, again, not a literal death, but it's the loss.

[Janis]: A lot of other things.

[Brent]: Yeah, and so, these don't go in order. We found these emotions or some of these experiences that everybody's going to feel, but they don't necessarily go in order, but they're going to feel some of these-- A shock is one of those things. I mean, this is-- Usually when we see somebody, they're still in shock. They just found this out last week maybe and all of a sudden, their whole past is rewritten now and they're going to have what we call aftershocks too, where as more and more information comes out. Because usually people don't tell the whole thing initially, even though we recommend “tell the whole thing”, they don't and so, they just have shock after shock after shock and it will impact us. Again, their world is all blown up, they don't know where the pieces are to put them back together and they're going to feel numb, they're going to feel disoriented. We just encourage people to give themselves grace, give themselves-- Let yourself have time to come through that and to come out of that shock. They will eventually come out of that. Their brain will slow down and not just imagine-- Be thinking about everything all the time and what ifs, but it's going to take some time.

[Janis]: Yeah. Just because your world feels like it's blown up right now, doesn't mean that things won't eventually get better and feel normal or healthier again.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. So, the-- I know there are times that we have people that say that their part was unfaithful early.

[Janis]: Well, we have people that go into denial sometimes. I mean, we'll have people come in that will say “You know, I just don't want to think about it” or more likely what I see is people come in and go “You know, my partner had an affair years ago and I just didn't want to hear about it. I didn't want to know anything about it. I just wanted to go ‘okay, don't tell me details and I'm going to move and we're going to move on’”. Well, that doesn't bring healing and so, then they go “so, we did that five years ago but now this has happened again and now, I want to work on it”. We can't let ourselves stay in denial even though it's tempting. I mean, when your world blows up you want to just say “no, I'm going to put my fingers in my ears and go la, la, la…”. But we have to deal with it or it will reoccur.

[Brent]: Yeah, it's an unresolved grief and it's going to show up later and so, for most it's impossible to deny this. We have some that just want to move on and it's too painful. For most it's impossible to do that and we think that's the healthiest, we believe the best and healthiest healing is always healing that is real and genuine and deals with the realities of life even though it's very painful. Another emotion that is so prevalent and going to happen in every one of these situations is anger. You know, we talk about anger being a secondary emotion. It's usually under the category of hurt or loss and this is both of those and so, they're going to feel both of those overwhelmingly and so, anger is going to be right at the surface very consistently.

[Brent]: It can't be stuffed, it can't be denied or it will cause harm and oftentimes, it just comes out, rushing out, you know? And is--

[Janis]: Pretty ugly.

[Brent]: Pretty ugly for a while and we often say the betrayed has the right to kind of do anything and say anything, but not everything is so helpful.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: Not everything is so healing. But if they just lose it and rant and rave and “how could you?” and so forth, we tell the betrayer “hey, this is part of it. This is part of having to sit and listen and experience this” and yet, there are healthier ways for the betrayer or the betrayed to be able to deal with their anger and so, sharing their anger in healthier ways so that's not harmful to others is important. This is one of the reasons why the betrayer connecting with the emotions deeply of the betrayed is so important. The more deeply you connect with that, the more their anger, the volume of their anger. Because most of the time when a person-- When they're betrayed has to just lash out it's because they don't think the other person gets it.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: But if those feelings are validated, then they go “okay, at least they get it”. Now, there's still going to be times they're going to be mad at them and there are healthy ways to process that and it's necessary.

[Janis]: Well, it is so hard for the betrayed to be able to get the anger out without it just coming pouring out of them in a negative way. We always encourage the betrayed to have at least one safe person that they can vent to. I mean, you have to pick that person because you don't necessarily want to do that with your mom, because it affects the relationship long term. But finding a safe person that you can just pour all this junk out. So, even though you've talked to your spouse, you always have somebody else that's like “Okay, yeah, that's hard, that's really difficult” and then of course, journaling venting on paper. People are always afraid of journaling because they think they have to do it every day and it has to be perfect. But really, kind of throwing up on paper, getting all those things out that you want to say that are mean and hurtful and awful, but you really do feel them. That helps you get the poison out. That helps you be able to think through “okay, I do want to say this to my spouse, but how do I say it in a way that I don't look like I'm crazy? I don't look like I'm irrational?”.

[Brent]: “I'm not just calling them names”.

[Janis]: Right. “But I still want them to know how bad this hurt and I still want to be able to ask them questions and to really deal with my anger and help them-- Or I want them to see that my anger is somewhat valid or is valid, considered what we've gone through”.

[Brent]: Yeah, for sure and so, it's that ability to be just real and messy. That's where a safe person and writing out and screaming to heaven even if I need to, on “why did this happen!?”

[Janis]: Because it will be messy.

[Brent]: It will be, yeah.

[Janis]: There is not a clean way through this. It's a messy situation and it's going to be messy healing, but it will get healed if you go through the appropriate steps.

[Brent]: Yeah, and this just helps the betrayer not be so condemned and attacked and again, we've said this is not the right to just lash out at them constantly and abuse them, you know? And so, these ways of ventilating that anger can get a lot of that energy out. So, as you said. So, well, that then I can sit down and say, you know, “I've been really angry at you today and I still can't believe this happened” and “how dare you?” and so forth. But it can be received more easily and it's not quite going for the jugular.

[Janis]: Right.

[Brent]: And so, often-- You know, another thing is that people are going to be depressed, they're going to be discouraged. Their whole past has changed. They've lost a sense of hope for the future and so, they're going to be depressed and very discouraged. One of the greatest challenges is they can't depend on their partner to help them in this. “You betrayed me. Even if you try to encourage me, first of all, your encouragement just comes across like you're invalidating my feelings”.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: “So, how can I even believe that what you're saying you're committed to and everything's going to be okay is even true? And sometimes I don't want to even be in the same room with you. So, how could I--? I don't even want to listen to it” and so, it's very difficult and it's very easy for them to pull back and feel very isolated by themselves and so, it really takes a lot of effort for the betrayed to get their legs underneath them.

[Janis]: And that's why it's important for them to have some safe people around them that they can confide in and it's also important for them to start rebuilding their life. Oftentimes, I'll tell to the betrayed “we need to help you build a good, healthy life and then whatever happens with the marriage, you're going to be fine. I believe the marriage can be healed, but if we can help you build a healthy life, you're going to be okay whatever happens”.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: So, sometimes that means they need to add some new habits in. They need to find some positive things that they can do that just help them gain strength as an individual and help them feel better about themselves. So, that may be taking up a hobby, it may be exercising, it may be saying “you know what? I've always wanted to go back to school and so, I think I want to do that”.

[Brent]: Or getting a job or all kinds of things.

[Janis]: Yes, and so, it's really helping them get inner strength to do some of the things that they want to do and that will help them feel better about themselves as a person.

[Brent]: That's so important because-- I'm glad you said that because if they're too needy, if they're “oh my gosh, what am I going to do? I can't do this on my own. I'm so mad at them. I can't believe that they did this and I don't even want to be around them right now, but how can I live without them?”. If they go there, the healing that is necessary just won't happen.

[Janis]: Right

[Brent]: So, it's not until they get to a place to be able to say internally or even sometimes verbally, say “hey, if this doesn't work out, I don't know that I can heal from this. I don't know that I can ever trust you again. So, it's the worst thing that I could have ever imagined, but I'm going to be okay. I'm going to find strength here”. That then allows the right kind of surgery to be done in both of their hearts, so that they actually can recover from this. If they're in too much fear of the future without the person, then they'll just put band-aids on everything and “let's just get everything back to kind of normal a little bit” and it's just a set up for it to keep happening.

[Janis]: It really is surgery.

[Brent]: Yes.

[Janis]: It's not something you can patch up. There's a lot of hard work that needs to be done. But you know, one of the privileges that I've had is I've worked with a number of women whose husbands have left them and they're out of the marriage. It's like “I'm going to go and be with this other person” and I've had the privilege to work with them and to watch them grow in that strength, and to find inner resources and strength that they never knew that they had and it's just amazing how they will say “you know what? I feel great. My husband divorced me, but you know what? I've gotten through this. It's been over a year now, and I really feel good about myself and feel good about my life” and that's a privilege we get to share of working with people.

[Brent]: Yeah, and so, the very same thing, even for those that do find restoration and healing, we find the same thing, the healthier they can be as an individual. Healthy marriages are two healthy individuals. If we are too needy and need the other person to do too much for us, it's always going to be kind of sick and unhealthy.

[Janis]: Yeah, yeah.

[Brent]: And so, that stance of “how do I come strong whether I can ever trust them or not?”. We always hope that they will give opportunity for trust to grow and for them to prove their trustworthiness and for restoration to happen. Again, that's wonderful. But their stance of “I'm going to be okay no matter what” is so critical.

[Janis]: Well, that makes a new marriage, which is what we always talk about.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: After you go through experience like this, you don't go back to the old marriage, you go into a new, healthier marriage and so, people do end up healthier if they're willing to do the work on it. You know, another stage that we have to touch on with grieving is mourning.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: You're going to go through periods of time where you're going to cry and you think “oh gosh, it's been this long, I think I'm doing pretty good” and then all of a sudden, its “why did I remember that and burst into tears?”. That is such a normal part of any kind of grief. You just have to allow yourself to cry when you need to cry and not say “oh my gosh, I've gone backwards. Why am I doing this?” It's just part of grief. So, you let yourself cry when you need to cry.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. I think we don't give room for that enough in our culture, we try to talk everybody out of their tears and we tell betrayers “just get used to it” and “you can't fix it. Just let them and be with them, be present with them”. It's another opportunity to say, “I am so sorry that I've caused you to feel these feelings. I am so sorry. But I am committed to live a life in a way that eventually you won't be this sad and you'll feel hopeful, but I want that to be a natural thing. You don't have to be there today or tomorrow. I'm with you”. Boy, if the betrayer can have that kind of an attitude and be present in the pain of their partner and know that this is a marathon and not get impatient with it, we've seen the possibility of forgiveness happen so much better.

[Janis]: And trust being rebuilt.

[Brent]: And trust being rebuilt. So, as we've discussed before that grief is like a pinball machine, as you bounce anger, depression, shock. You know, it’s… But as each person processes these emotions in a healthy way, then we find that the intensity begins to decrease little by little. The time in between the stages, the frequency of how often they feel these things, usually starts to spread out until eventually they begin to feel like “You know what? This is different. I'm okay. We're going to get through this”. But again, marathon, not sprint and so, as you can see, there's a lot going on in this process of recovery. This is complicated, messy human business. But we do see so much hope for couples when they both can coordinate and to collaborate and work together as a team and both have the right heart attitude. As individuals, we see some amazing things be able to happen.

[Janis]: It's messy hard work, but it's worth it.

[Brent]: Absolutely. So, next time we're going to finish our series. You're wondering “are they ever going to get to the end of this thing?”.

[Janis]: We'll move on to something else eventually.

[Brent]: We're going to finish this and kind of the final stage of restoration and building a new life for the future. Most everything we've talked about now is how do we heal the past and the hurts from that. How do we now build strength for the future and build the kind of relationship that this could never happen again. So, for today, go in peace. Bless you as you go.