Betrayal in Other Relationships (Love, Lies and Betrayal • Part 6) Episode 39

In this episode Brent and Janis look at other relationships, besides marriage, where betrayal can happen. They discuss how to assess the damage and move forward toward a healthy, thriving life.

The Life & Love Nuggets podcast will help you learn valuable insights into relationships, life, and love. Brent and Janis have been empowering couples through pre-marriage and marriage therapy in their private practice, Life Connection Counseling, since 1982. They recently retired after forty years of pastoral ministry and are continuing to help individuals, marriages and families in their private practice.

The podcast is produced by Clayton Creative in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The content should not be considered or used for counseling but for educational purposes only.

Make a tax-deductible donation to Life & Love Nuggets today!

You can help us share marriage-saving insights with couples all over the world. Life & Love Nuggets is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization, so your gift is tax-deductible. Click below to donate!

Transcript:

[Brent]: Hello, friends. Welcome back to Life & Love nuggets. Here we are again. We're continuing in this series on love, lies and betrayal. We've been really mainly focusing on what happens in a marriage, in an affair, when there's something, the most significant betrayal that we think that people can experience and we've kind of wrapped that one up, but we've kind to think “you know, there's other ways that people are betrayed”. So, it's not just in that relationship and sometimes the betrayal isn't at that level, but it still feels like betrayal.

[Janis]: It still hurts.

[Brent]: It still hurts and so, it may be a business partner that has concealed some information from you or a friend who told someone something about you that was private, that they broke a confidence. Or you worked on a project with a friend and you did most-- All of it and they took all the credit for it. Or a neighbor borrowed a tool or a lawnmower or something and they broke it and they just returned it that way and you're like “what the heck?” and so, those are all kinds of betrayals.

[Janis]: It could also be a family member. Maybe they did something behind your back that hurt you. I've worked with a couple of different families over the years where the parents took out student loans in their kids’ name.

[Brent]: Oh my goodness.

[Janis]: And used them for themselves.

[Brent]: Probably illegal.

[Janis]: Yeah, at least it's illegal. But the kids didn't even find out until after they went to buy a house or when they started getting notes that they were delinquent on their student loan. I mean, that is betrayal.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: On a more minor issue, but still painful, is little things that can happen between friends. Like, you tell a friend about the perfect couch that you've picked out for your house and you're saving up money because you can't wait to get that and then your friend goes and buys it ahead of you for her house. That hurts. Little, but it hurts.

[Brent]: Yeah

[Janis]: Or maybe you planned your dream trip for your next anniversary and you're so excited about it, and she and her husband, or he and his wife go ahead and take the trip ahead of you that was the exact trip you planned. Those may feel petty, but they hurt and they do feel like a form of betrayal.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, whether big things like taking out student loans you didn't know about or small things, somebody buys a piece of furniture that was your favorite, these all feel like betrayals.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: And you're going to feel the same kind of feelings as if it was at the highest level. It just may not be as intense and so, we have to still deal with those feelings and so, what do we do when we've been betrayed? How do we even recognize “okay, what level is this? What do I do with this? Am I over responding, overreacting to something? Or is this an appropriate response?”. Sometimes it gets a little bit confusing because other people might go “oh that's not that big a deal” and yet, it stings. It still feels that way. So, we're going to talk about just a few practical things.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: Some of these are similar to what we dealt with, with an affair even, but just ways to let ourselves feel the feeling, move those feelings through us and then determine what do we do with that, what does that actually mean in this relationship.

[Janis]: Well, I think one of the first steps is that we journal and I know we say that over and over again, but this is a rush of feelings and like you said, if it's something little, it's like “am I making a big deal about this?”. If we can write and write all the things that we're feeling… So many things bubble up when we start writing, but if we can write the things that we're feeling, it can help us not only reduce some of the emotion with it, but it really helps us clarify what is the issue here and sometimes it'll help you look at good or bad in that friendship, to see “what are the characteristics of this friendship and is this one that's good and healthy for me?”.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, it helps us kind of identify the intensity of it and kind of get it through us so we don't react too quickly, which I think is probably a thing to consider, is just “don't react too fast” and journaling is one of those things that helps with that. Certainly, we've also talked about safe people in our life. These are people that we can cuss and fuss with and we can just kind of rant and rave and they're mature enough that they don't get a bad attitude towards the person, they recognize stuff happens in people's lives, but they also don't try to fix you. They just listen, let you express it, get it out of you. Again, oftentimes that's helpful to just have had people, you know, kind of talk themselves through it then and almost out of it, you know?

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: Where it's “Okay. Yes, I was really ticked when this first happened. Well, if they have the same couch, I mean, it's okay, you know?”

[Janis]: Yeah. “In light of everything else in our relationship, it's not that big a deal”.

[Brent]: “Just probably not even worth dealing with. Or I probably do need to go talk to them about this or ask a question or process that a little bit”. Again, remember, another principle in this is we've got to realize that forgiveness and trust are very different things and so, one of the things we're working on here if we feel betrayed by somebody is, can I forgive them? And again, sometimes they don't even get it. Sometimes even if we feel like we need to go talk to them, they're like “well, I didn't think it would be that big a deal and I didn't mean it” or whatever and they're just not going to understand the level of hurt.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: And so, how do I then forgive? We talked about forgiveness is a one-way street, that we can forgive somebody even if they don't get it. Even if they never recognize why that hurt us or we felt betrayed by that, we can still forgive them, and we've talked about that magic eyes’ principle, which is “how do I see them differently? Instead of seeing them as this good friend that should have known better and betrayed me. I realize, you know, that's just kind of out of their own kind of weakness, out of their own brokenness, that they just see it differently” and “okay, I can let that go” and it's, again, Jesus on the cross. “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing” and so, how do I release that?

[Brent]: Now, that may affect whether we can trust them. Remember, trust is a two-way street, and trust requires them to actually acknowledge “oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. I'm so sorry”. “Hey, dude, you brought the mower back and it was broken”; “I know, man. I'm so sorry. I meant to say something to you and I didn't” and then, they go actually then do something about that. “Okay. Well, maybe I can trust them”. Or “what's the deal?”; “I don't know. It wasn't broken when I was done with it. I don't know what happened, you know?”. Those are two different responses, okay?

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: One is “I don't think I can trust that guy”. Another is “Okay, they recognize that. They apologize. They're working to actually earn back that trust” and all of those are factors in these matters is, what do we then do with betrayals at these different levels? Is this something I can just forgive and move on? Or is it something that it's going to really affect the relationship?

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: I can forgive them, but this really showed me something about them that I didn't see before. I don't feel safe with them now and so, trust is not really then earned and so, all of those are factors and we're just suggesting we've got to realize these are real. These are real feelings; we can't just overlook it. There's no shoulds and oughts in this; it's just what is and these are some things that can help kind of give us some perspective to keep moving us forward.

[Janis]: But you mentioned an important point, and that is we have to have a conversation with them. We have to share with them that this is what hurt me. Now, we don't do it until after we've journaled or we've talked with trusted friends and we've calmed down and we figured out what the issue really is.

[Brent]: And that it's worth it, you know?

[Janis]: Yeah, exactly.

[Brent]: It's a level that I want-- Our relationship is important, so I'm going to need to have a conversation with them, right?

[Janis]: Right, right, because there are consequences. I mean, when something like this happens, you need to determine what the consequences are. I mean, some of them are “maybe I need to set boundaries, a little bit better boundaries with them” or “maybe I'm going to withdraw, withdraw just a little bit from this”. Maybe it’s “I have to decide whether this person can even be in my life because the wound or the hurt is so severe” and I think we have to ask ourselves, is this a symptom of something else? Not that we're trying to judge people or analyze people, but if they're a friend, we've seen some kind of patterns in their lives. So, we have to see, is this something where maybe they're jealous? Or they're one of those people that has to win, they have to have the best first? Or as you said, is it just a simple mistake? “Oops, I didn't realize you wanted that couch. I thought it was this other one. I'm sorry, I totally forgot about it”. Which again, is a different type of relationship. But sometimes we determine that there's people that are so unhealthy that we may need to end the relationship or we may need to distance ourselves from them. Can I have a friendship with them on the level that I've had it, or should I have a different level of friendships? Because, you know, there's different levels of friendships. I always use the model of Jesus. He had the multitude.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: He had the twelve, and he had the three and I think our relationships are all of those and if a three, one of my closest, one of my three besties, if one of them betrays me, it's a lot more painful than if one of the twelve or one of the multitude does and so, that impacts how we deal with it and what we do with it.

[Brent]: It's more important that they get it and that there's some change, some recognition and some change, so that I can continue with that friendship. It's going to hurt more, but it's also more important that we get some clarity there, that we really talk this through and work it out.

[Janis]: And don't just brush it under the rug or throw it over your back in this pack that later on you're going to blow up at them and go “not only did you get the same couch, but you also did this and this and this and this!”

[Brent]: Yeah, and we get all passive aggressive with them.

[Janis]: Yeah. We've got to be open to talk about those things and then there's also what I call for better or for worse, I call it this “perceived betrayal”. It's when we feel betrayed. It's a very real feeling, but it may actually be that other person in our lives was just making some kind of a change. I remember very long ago, early in my practice, I had a friend or a guy there who was a friend with his pastor. They were close friends for years and years and years. The pastor decided that they should move the church away from hymns into more contemporary praise songs and this guy thought that was wrong and bad and that God would never lead them in that direction and he felt betrayed. He felt like he had to cut off the church, but he probably had to cut off his friend too, because he felt betrayed. He didn't understand. He had to work on understanding that his pastor friend had a right to make changes in the church. That he'd heard him, he'd listened to everything he had to say, but what he felt the Lord was calling him to do, what other people were encouraging to do, is to move in that direction. So, sometimes it's because people make changes that we're not happy with.

[Brent]: Yeah, certainly can happen with family members, real close friends that have just made some life choices. So, we're real close with somebody and all of a sudden, now they're in a new romantic relationship and they're just like totally in that, have no time for us and feel disconnected from them. All of a sudden, they just don't seem to need us, which is true, you know?

[Janis]: True. But we're back there-- What Spencer, our son, used to do when he was a toddler in the car seat and I'd get the other kids out and he'd go “bout me, bout me”.

[Brent]: “Bout me”, yes. [Unintelligible] feeling left out, hurt, betrayed, but the reality is, it's not against you. This choice is not against you, they're just moving to a different stage of their life. We've seen that with couples that start having children and they have new babies and they're the first couple in the friend group that has a baby and all of a sudden, they cannot stay out of sleep anymore. You know, they just don't have the time anymore.

[Janis]: They have to get the baby to bed.

[Brent]: Well, and they want to spend time with the baby now and we just can't leave it all the time and so, the group feels betrayed in some ways by that and again, we just need to realize that these are perceived betrayals. Going to feel the feeling, but that's why talking about it, journaling it, getting it out, letting yourself feel it. Because again, if you just brush it away and don't even acknowledge it, as you said, it can kind of come out sideways later, which isn't very healthy and so, there's some family systems where this is what the family does. We always do this, we meet here for this holiday, we do this and all of a sudden, some of the kids, their life's changing and they have other priorities and they want to do some stuff just with their kids instead of all the big family and have grown ups our age, you know? That come in talking about “my kids are doing this different, and they don't want to be with us as much” and trying to get us to fix them, you know? And we're like “You know, this is just life changes and yes, there's some grief, it might feel like betrayal, but they're not doing this against you necessarily”.

[Janis]: Yeah

[Brent]: So, some of them is like “yeah, we need to look at what we're doing. We're still trying to parent them”.

[Janis]: That's another topic.

[Brent]: That's another topic. You know, they're 35 and we're still trying to parent them.

[Janis]: That’s right.

[Brent]: We know that's [Unintelligible] That’s going to be a problem.

[Janis]: That doesn't go well.

[Brent]: Yes, and so, again, just recognizing people have made life changes, they're making adjustments in their life, and that's going to be under that kind of perceived betrayal.

[Janis]: Yes. For many people, change in general can feel like betrayal or rejection or abandonment. In the case of parents of adult kids, it may feel like abandonment. But when we grow, when we mature, when we move to another stage of life, we have to make changes. We talked about that in our change podcast, and oftentimes that requires us to set boundaries and there are some people that really don't like boundaries. Have you noticed that? Those awful things called boundaries?

[Brent]: Yes, yes.

[Janis]: You know, when we did our first podcast on “oh, so you're going to be with family for the holidays”. We talked about setting boundaries with family, especially if you're in a different life stage, just as you said. So, another thing that I've seen fairly commonly, not all the time, but several over the years, are families that are diehard OU or OSU football fans.

[Brent]: Yeah. We're in Oklahoma here.

[Janis]: Yes. Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain and grandpa has always had season tickets, and probably his father before him had season tickets, and they expect everyone in the family to be there for every game, unless you're in the hospital or something else drastic. But that becomes a problem.

[Brent]: I'm paying for it. Why wouldn't they want to come? Right?

[Janis]: “This is our family time together. We always do this” and for many of them, it's like “and we tailgate all day long, so it's our entire day”. But then the adult kids have a baby and it's 30 degrees out and they don't want to have their newborn sitting in the stand.

[Brent]: That’s right.

[Janis]: And it causes a lot of problems.

[Brent]: Even if they're [Unintelligible]

[Janis]: Even if they're covered with everything and they've come up with all kinds of little heater things that can be there and generally the mom doesn't want to do that either. So, they have to set boundaries. What's hard is grandpa has either clearly or very subtly stated-- Often, it's clearly “this is part of being in our family and to change how we do things is to betray who we are”. But healthy people, healthy families allow people to change and accept that relationships have to adapt to life, into the life stages that we're in. So, we probably feel some sense of betrayal in our lives no matter what. We'll probably have something, somebody who has betrayed us.

[Brent]: Absolutely. We're humans living with humans.

[Janis]: We are and we'll probably betray people.

[Brent]: Yeah.

[Janis]: But before we react, we have to stop, we have to think, we have to journal, we have to talk to a safe person about what's going on. We may talk to that person if it's something that we need to deal with. But then we ask ourselves “Do I need to set boundaries? Do I need to distance myself? Do I need to end this relationship?”. We want to be careful to not jump to a response.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, again, as you mentioned, we're all going to experience this. I mean, in this life, we will have trouble. There's going to be some challenges here and the very things that we need to do are the very things we would want other people to do if they felt we betrayed them, if we did something--

[Janis]: Accept that you went to others.

[Brent]: Yes

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: If they felt like, that we didn't follow through with something or we changed something or whatever, we'd want them to eventually come and talk to us. We'd rather them not do it in the heat at the moment, you know? If they could ventilate that a little bit and think it through and process that. But the only way a relationship has a chance to be healed in the potential of trust building and so forth, is if we talk about it and we work on that and so, that's what we would hope that they would do if they feel betrayed by us and so, eventually, if it's at that level, we need to go talk to others. So, hopefully these are just some ideas at the different levels. There's going to be some things that as we work it through, it's like “okay, they did not mean that. I can just really let that go. I can forgive it and be done and there's not really a trust issue and we can go on” and then there are those all the way down to significant boundaries where I can’t-- “I need to let go of this relationship. It's not safe anymore” and so, everything in between that just realize we're all going to face that and there are different levels of healing. Again, because this has to do with other people and that we can't control. There's going to be levels of restoration and how it kind of moves forward. We simply want to do our part.

[Janis]: And I also encourage people, if a person feels betrayed by you, then it's important that you be empathetic to that and be prepared to listen to what they have to say in a very empathetic, understanding way and when we have to set boundaries, especially with parents, but with anyone, it's also important that we communicate to them and say “I love you, I love being with you, grandpa. But we need to set some boundaries that are good for our lives”.

[Brent]: “We just can't do this in our life”.

[Janis]: “We can’t do this”, yeah. The old health-- What is it? Good neighbors have good fences.

[Brent]: Yes.

[Janis]: Yes. It's okay to have boundaries.

[Brent]: Yeah, yeah. So, wherever you find yourself in this process of recognizing betrayal, we trust that if we do our part, there's always a way forward, there's always a way for us to be free. Even if I have to say “no” to a relationship going forward, there's a way that we can be free and not bitter and resentful, and there's a way for relationships to be restored. This is what we're always holding on to and hoping for, and as we kind of ending up this series now, we trust that wherever you find betrayal showing up in your life, that you can be honest and open and genuine and real. Take your real, honest self to God. He always has a way through.

[Janis]: Yes

[Brent]: And so, for today, go in peace. Bless you as you go.

[Janis]: Hi, guys. We just finished up our series on love, lies and betrayal. So, next time we're going to go to a happier note and we're going to be talking about how to increase our joy or a sense of happiness in life. But before we go today, I just want to ask you, would you please send us questions, comments, topics that you want to talk about? That would be really helpful as we go forward in our planning and if you would like to help support us financially, you can go to lifeandlovenuggets.com or send your questions and comments there. Thanks.