Are Forgiveness and Trust the Same? (Episode 2)

In Episode 2 of the Life & Love Nuggets podcast, Brent and Janis talk about how we can forgive hurts from the past and find freedom in our life even if those that hurt us don’t change and how that process is very different than trusting someone.

Transcript:

[Brent]: Welcome to Life & Love Nuggets.

[Janice]: With Brent and Janis Sharpe.

[Brent]: I want to help you thrive in your life, your love and all your relationships.

[Janice]: But before we begin, let me say a little bit about us. We've been therapists for three decades. Over three decades going on four, but let's not count.

[Brent]: Old people. (laughs)

[Janice]: We've been married 44 years and we have four grown children. Now, they range in age from 29 to 39, but we're not going to tell you their names, just in case they want to deny that they know us after this podcast. But they're all married, have wonderful spouses and we have six of the most adorable grandchildren.

[Brent]: Isn't grandparenting an awesome gig?

[Janice]: It's great.

[Brent]: It's fantastic.

[Janice]:  But on a more serious note, we're going to talk today about forgiveness. It's a topic that's kind of confusing. We have a lot of clients that will come in and ask us questions about forgiveness and what does that really mean. One of the ones that we hear more-- Most often is “can I forgive someone who hasn't apologized to me?”.

[Brent]: Yeah, we always say that forgiveness is a one-way street. We have the ability to forgive somebody, even if they don't change. Now, it's a whole lot easier if they say they're sorry and apologize, absolutely, but it really doesn't require that. God can give us the ability, he graces us with this ability to be able to forgive somebody, even if they don't change. Because he couldn't direct us to forgive if it had-- If it required something from them, because we have no control over them. So, it's really the Jesus on the cross and “father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing” and so, he gives us that ability to do that.

[Janice]: So, the next question I get pretty often is “if I forgive them, does that mean we still have to be friends? Does that mean I have to trust them? Because I’m not sure if I can trust them after what they did”.

[Brent]: Absolutely, that's where we say trust is always a two-way street. So, forgiveness is a one-way street. God can give us the ability to forgive, even if they don't change, but trust is a two-way street. It requires change on the other person's part and change for a long enough period of time, which usually takes a long time. I always tell people this is a marathon, not a sprint. Trust can be lost in an instant and sometimes can take a lifetime to regain, but if they-- If they confess, if they are recognizing what they've done is wrong. If they repent, which just simply means “change my mind”. Instead of going this direction, I’m going to turn a corner and go this direction and if they then change the behavior that was hurtful and if they do that for a long enough period of time, we actually can begin to trust people.

[Brent]: So, these two things are going to operate on two different levels. Forgiveness and trust can move forward. Sometimes forgiveness moves way Forward and trust is still in the starting blocks, because there was no acknowledgment on the other person's part. Now, hopefully in significant relationships, we can get both of those. You know, obviously we do a lot of a fair recovery and I always tell couples that you have a chance to get both of these, but we may be able to move forward in forgiveness faster than trust happens. But if we keep moving on both of those, if we keep pushing both of those forward, then we can have both of those, I think.

[Janice]: But I do think we need to be cautious in-- Maybe not cautious, but the fact that there are people that it's not safe to trust at all, you know? I say-- I tell my clients sometimes, “you know, you could be in a room and somebody would come and stab you and you might recover from it and be well and you may realize that they're hurt people and they're hurting people and you forgive them, but that doesn't mean you should necessarily be in the same room with them again”.

[Brent]: Yeah. So, the point is there are people that we can be able to forgive even in that case. We would need to be able to forgive them at some point, just not to be bitter and resentful people.

[Brent]: But there's some people that we would be absolute fools to trust, because they're simply not trustworthy. The scripture talks about as much as it's up to us, live at peace with all men. Not everybody's peaceable and so, there's some people we're simply not going to be able to do that with.

[Janice]: So, unpack that a little bit for us, talk a little more about forgiveness and trust.

[Brent]: Well, I think this is the Christmas season and really, the whole idea of forgiveness really started with this. The whole point of forgiveness and the ability to be able to forgive, really came through the life of Jesus. So, God decides to come in human form and live among us and ultimately, sacrifice his life for all our sins, for our missteps, for our brokenness and to forgive us, scripture says if we ask for forgiveness, if we repent, he's faithful and just to be able to forgive us and so, the only way I think we really forgive is through recognizing “he's done this for me, therefore, I want to offer this to others”.

[Brent]: And so, we're simply doing what Jesus did, were following his footsteps. We're walking in his path of being able to forgive others. We googled, you know, “forgiveness” right before-- A little bit more this morning and you can come up with all kinds of scriptures on this. There's a few of those that just kind of gives us a little bit of perspective on this.

[Janice]: Sure, like “be kind and compassionate to one another. Forgiving each other just as God in Christ Jesus forgave you”. Because we are around humans and we are humans, we're going to hurt each other. I mean, it's part of human life. But scripture is clear about the need for forgiveness. Another one is “love prospers when a fault is forgiven, but dwelling on it separates close friends”. It's easy to dwell on things and it's hard to let them go. “Bear with each other and forgive one another. If any of you has grievances against someone, forgive as the Lord forgave you”.

[Brent]: So, this again, “as the Lord forgave you”. So, this gives us the framework, it's something that we're directed to do. Again, God would not have directed us to be able to do this, if it required change on other people's part as we mentioned. because it's, again, we have no control over that and yet, he directs us to do this, because he knows this is how we stay healthy. this is how we don't become bitter and resentful people and how we free even other people, you know? In their life and you know, I often get asked “well, how do I forgive when I don't feel like it? And certainly, they're not sorry, I don't feel like doing this. How do I actually do this?”

[Brent]: So, we're going to look at kind of a process that we have come across, a perspective. Because I think that we've been taught that forgiveness is like, “okay, I just decide to do it”.

[Brent]: Like, flipping a light switch. “Okay, I realize I need to do this, so I forgive you” and oftentimes we go through that motion and five minutes later…

[Janice]: We're still mad.

[Brent]: We’re just as upset as we were before. So, what the heck do I do? And we've come to understand that forgiveness is a process. It's something that we direct our heart towards, but the way forgiveness actually happens is a little-by-little process.

[Janice]: And I think that's confusing, because a lot of us in our Christian tradition, we're taught “well, just pray and it'll be gone”. But it is a process. Many years ago, we came across a book called “Forgive and Forget” by Lewis Smedes and even he said, he doesn't really believe you can forgive and forget. But there is a process to be able to forgive and in the front of his book, which we actually put in our book with permission.

[Brent]: With permission, yes.

[Janice]: Yes. There's a great fable that I often use with my clients and so, I’m going to read it just briefly out of our book. It's called “The Magic eyes - A little fable”. The following is from the Lewis Smedes book, again, “Forgive and Forget” and it demonstrates the power and the work involved in true forgiveness.

[Janice]: In the village of Faken in innermost Friesland there lived a long thin baker name Fouke, a righteous man, with a long thin chin and a long thin nose. Fouke was so upright that he seemed to spray righteousness from his thin lips over everyone who came near him; so the people of Faken preferred to stay away.

[Janice]: Fouke's wife, Hilda, was short and round, her arms were round, her bosom was round, her rump was round. Hilda did not keep people at bay with righteousness; her soft roundness seemed to invite them instead to come close to her in order to share the warm cheer of her open heart.

[Janice]: Hilda respected her righteous husband, and loved him too, as much as he allowed her; but her heart ached for something more from him than his worthy righteousness. And there, in the bed of her need, lay the seed of sadness.

[Janice]: One morning, having worked since dawn to knead his dough for the ovens, Fouke came home and found a stranger in his bedroom lying on Hilda's round bosom.

[Janice]: Hilda's adultery soon became the talk of the tavern and the scandal of the Faken congregation. Everyone assumed that Fouke would cast Hilda out of his house, so righteous was he. But he surprised everyone by keeping Hilda as his wife, saying he forgave her as the Good Book said he should.

[Janice]: In his heart of hearts, however, Fouke could not forgive Hilda for bringing shame to his name. Whenever he thought about her, his feelings toward her were angry and hard; he despised her as if she were a common whore. When it came right down to it, he hated her for betraying him after he had been so good and so faithful a husband to her.

[Janice]: He only pretended to forgive Hilda so that he could punish her with his righteous mercy. But Fouke's fakery did not sit well in heaven. So, each time that Fouke would feel his secret hated toward Hilda, an angel came to him and dropped a small pebble, hardly the size of a shirt button, into Fouke's heart. Each time a pebble dropped; Fouke would feel a stab of pain like the pain he felt the moment he came on Hilda feeding her hungry heart from a stranger's larder. Thus, he hated her the more; his hate brought him pain and his pain made him hate.

[Janice]: The pebbles multiplied. And Fouke's heart grew very heavy with the weight of them, so heavy that the top half of his body bent forward so far that he had to strain his neck upward in order to see straight ahead. Weary with hurt, Fouke began to wish he were dead.

[Janice]: The angel who dropped the pebbles into his heart came to Fouke one night and told him how he could be healed of his hurt. There was one remedy, he said, only one, for the hurt of a wounded heart.

[Janice]: Fouke would need the miracle of the magic eyes. He would need eyes that could look back to the beginning of his hurt and see his Hilda, not as a wife who betrayed him, but as a weak woman who needed him. Only a new way of looking at things through the magic eyes could heal the hurt flowing from the wounds of yesterday.

[Janice]: Fouke protested. "Nothing can change the past," he said. "Hilda is guilty, a fact that not even an angel can change." "Yes, poor hurting man, you are right," the angel said. "You cannot change the past; you can only heal the hurt that comes to you from the past. And you can heal it only with the vision of the magic eyes." "And how can I get your magic eyes?" pouted Fouke. "Only ask, desiring as you ask, and they will be given you. And each time you see Hilda through your new eyes, one pebble will be lifted from your aching heart."

[Janice]: Fouke could not ask at once, for he had grown to love his hatred. But the pain of his heart finally drove him to want and to ask for the magic eyes that the angel had promised. So, he asked and the angle gave. Soon Hilda began to change in front of Fouke's eyes, wonderfully and mysteriously. He began to see her as a needy woman who loved him instead of a wicked woman who betrayed him.

[Janice]: The angel kept his promise; he lifted the pebbles from Fouke's heart, one by one, though it took a long time to take them all away. Fouke gradually felt his heart grow lighter; he began to walk straight again, and somehow his nose and his chin seemed less thin and sharp than before. He invited Hilda to come into his heart again, and she came, and together they began again a journey into their second season of humble joy.

[Brent]: We came across to this several years ago and it was so impacting on understanding what we had seen with people, on how forgiveness can kind of stagnate and paralyze and then, how it can move forward and some of the key principles involved in this. Now, they had to pick a certain issue.

[Brent]: You know, we've been doing this long enough to know there's all kinds of ways that people hurt each other and so, all of us can put kind of our circumstances in the midst of that situation and even the personalities that they had, are going to be different, you know? For everybody. But some of the key points that were so impacting to me, first of all, that forgiveness requires mercy.

[Brent]: One of the definitions of mercy is to get inside the skin of another person and see what they see and feel what they feel and experience what they've experienced. The ability that he had, that's what these magic eyes is all about. Now it sounds a little magical, okay? But--

[Janice]: But it's a fable.

[Brent]: It is a fable, right? But the idea is if we can somehow see the person differently, I think it's about seeing them how God sees them. Because God sees all people regardless of how broken they are and how hurt they are and the hurt that they've caused others, as his children, as people that have legitimate needs and weaknesses and insecurities and fears and as he was able to see that in her, something happened in him.

[Brent]: And the whole idea of the pebbles, I think is so powerful too, because it really does show a process and you know, when I read that scripture, I just-- The whole issue of Peter coming to Jesus came to mind, you know? Peter came to Jesus and said “Lord, how many times are we supposed to forgive? You know, once, twice, three times, seven times?” Of course, the scripture in one Jesus comes back and says “no, 77 times” and in another section it actually says “70 times 7”. So, it's either 77 or 490.

[Brent]: We've come to understand it doesn't mean that on the 491st time, we don't need to forgive them anymore. It's that it's an eternal process, it's an ongoing process and actually, it's usually not that people have hurt us 490 times, it's we remember it 490 times. If not 490,000 times.

[Janice]: I often tell my clients “If you wake up in the morning and you are having an argument with that person that hurt you and you're trying to convince them in your own mind what's going on, it's time to let it go”. It's time to change how we see things, because we waste a lot of emotional energy having these conversations and arguments in our brain, that don't do anything other than make us miserable.

[Brent]: So, somehow, its recognizing hurt people hurt people, out of people's brokenness they hurt others and somehow, if we can see them that way and I think in every situation we can ask God to help us “how do I see them differently?”. You know, I share the idea that, you know, if we heard of a guy that had robbed a filling station here in town or something and a convenience store and it was 19 years old and we immediately think “oh my gosh, that's a bad dude”. But if we heard the story about his past and realized that his parents were both drug addicts and he was, you know, basically they were not parents at all, he was kicked out of his house when he was 12, he's been living in friends’ garages for years, we're gonna have a little bit more mercy for him; “Well, no wonder he did that”.

[Brent]: Now, there's still consequences, it doesn't mean there's not consequences.

[Brent]: He's still going to go to jail for a while and so forth, but our heart of mercy grows and so, it's how do we get a picture of them differently? And the way this works, is that every time the memory of the hurt comes back to my mind, I’ve got an option. I can either collect a pebble, I can see that it was a dirty rotten scoundrel and bad and I can collect more pebbles or I can get rid of a pebble and see them differently and see them in their own weaknesses, their own brokenness, their own insecurities and I become free. It really is up to us, it's not up to them apologizing or being sorry.

[Brent]: We can walk this out and find a place of peace and so, a little exercise. I don't know how you use this with your clients. A little exercise that I do is, I have people try to get a picture of the other person's brokenness in their mind.

[Brent]: Now, we do a lot of a fair recovery, a lot of marriage counseling and so, a lot of times these spouses know quite a bit about the other person and their background and I say, “think back on their childhood, you know a bit about them. What are some broken things that happened?” You know, maybe something really difficult went on when they were eight years old. Their parents went into a divorce and they felt very insecure or whatever or they were abused or this situation happened when they were teenagers or whatever. Begin to think about what insecurity would that have caused in that person? Maybe they had a parent that was just never could be pleased and so, they developed this sense of always having to try to be okay and be accepted and be loved and they had this just, drive for that and they look for inappropriate things, you know? To satisfy them in that. But if we begin to get picture of them, if it's a family member or spouse, I encourage them to try to find a literal picture of them, you know?

[Brent]: Go into the archives and photo albums and find a picture of them at seven or eight or ten and ask God “how can I see this person differently?” and kind of write out a little paragraph “I’m choosing to see them as a 12-year-old that was trying to satisfy an unpleasable parent and they developed this insecurity and these certain patterns” and if you can get a little picture of them at 12.

[Janice]: Yeah

[Brent]: And put those next to each other, you look in the eyes of a 12 year old? We just have more mercy. They didn't choose this; they didn't decide to have this experience happen to them. Now, maybe the person in your life, you don't know that well. You know, you can't get a picture from them. But I do believe that that if we ask God to help us, that we can get some idea of how I can see them differently.

[Brent]: That's why people do this. I initially for 30 days, I have them just kind of pray over that. “Lord, help me to see them as this” and begin to look at that picture if you have a picture and just see what happens. I’ve just seen some pretty amazing things happen, those pebbles begin to move away, they become more-- They become lighter. Their heart becomes more warm towards life and believing that there's good in the future and so, it's not about, again, how we feel initially, but it's something that we can do to find a place of freedom and really be able to release people in forgiveness.

[Brent]: Now, the reality is the way this works, I have found is you're going to go along and you're going to be working on this and then, a memory comes back that you just couldn't stop or they did something else.

[Janice]: Right, they do something that reminds you of that.

[Brent]: Absolutely or somebody else did and it reminds you of that and it comes back and also, we start collecting a few pebbles again and it's like “okay, I gotta push that back”.

[Brent]: And continue to walk in this way and you know, we've dealt with people that the person who hurt them, has been dead for 10 years.

[Brent]: But they still--

[Janice]: They’re still having those arguments in their brain with them though.

[Brent]: That person is still controlling them from the grave,

[Janice]: I's true.

[Brent]: So, there is a way to freedom and we can choose that and so, one of the ways to walk this out.

[Janice]: And it's a process and we don't tend to like process.

[Brent]: We don’t.

[Janice]: We want things done quickly and so, we'll have people come in and go “no, I really need to get over this now”. But it's that constant little by little, step by step. It's very similar to peeling an onion, you got to do it layer by layer until it actually happens and sometimes, we don't know that we have really, really gotten free from that until all of a sudden, we go “you know what? I didn't think about that situation that hurt me. I can't remember the last time I thought about it”. Because we tend to as we heal, those things come up less and less often.

[Janice]: Now, again, not as quickly as we would like them to, but over time, we go longer periods of time without dealing with it. So, how does this--? Circling back around again, how does this--? How does forgiveness and trust? How do those work together?

[Brent]: Yeah. So, again, forgiveness is a one-way street. Everything we just talked about is something we can do, even if the other person doesn't change. Because the little fable is wonderful, they walk into the sunset in their second season of humble joy, but that person may not change. Hilda in the in the little story did.

[Brent]: And there was repentance and confession and obviously, they don't tell the whole story, but obviously, you know, she lived differently and so, they were able to get both. But that's not always the case and the way I’ve seen trust working and trust is a two-way street and again, we've been doing this long enough to see people break trust on every imaginable level and every time I’ve seen the way trust is broken and the way it is recovered, is by this same principle and I tell couples it’s “if you can envision a bathtub, a bathtub of water. The water level in the tub represents a level of trust”. Now, usually when people-- Again, we do a lot of affair recovery, when people first got with this person and you know, fell in love with this person or started a relationship with a person, you don’t even usually think about trust. Certainly not married couples, you know? It's like if you're going to do it, you say you're going to do it and you won't do what you say you won't do and we feel like we have a full bathtub, it feels awesome; we can splash around in it. Because trust as we know, undergirds everything.

[Brent]: It affects everything and so, we feel the sense of security, that's why people usually walk down the aisle with this person, because I feel like I can trust you.

[Brent]: But when an untrustworthy thing happens, it's like the plug gets pulled and I envision grandma's plugs with a little rubber stopper and a little chain on them kind of like. The plug gets pulled now. If it's “hey, I’ll be home at six” and I roll in at 7 30, well, the plug gets pulled.

[Brent]: Now, if that only happened one time and there's a good reason: cell phone died, I got caught behind a wreck well, that plug gets put right back in. We lost a little bit, but it's almost imperceptible.

[Brent]: If I’m late like, 50% of the time, then every time I say “honey, I’ll be home at six”, you're gonna go “well, we'll see”.

[Janice]: “Yeah, right”.

[Brent]: Right? You know, I mean, you may trust me in other areas, but you're not going to trust me in that area.

[Brent]: Again, we deal with so much affair recovery that, when something has to do with fidelity like that, it's a deep painful wound like that, it's a little bit like the plug got pulled, broken off the chain, thrown out in the backyard someplace.

[Brent]: We pretty well drain this and so, there are many of you today that have those kinds of situations, where it's just gone, you know? Spouse, a parent, a friend and you just can't trust them at all. Well, you can't do anything about that unless they do something about it. This is where it's a two-way street, you can't work up trust somehow, it has to be earned and you know, people say “well, you're just gonna have to trust me”. “No, that's not even a thing, it's not even a legitimate concept”.

[Brent]: Trust is either there or it's not there and so, the way I’ve seen this work, first of all, there has to be confession and repentance. If somebody is trying to convince their partner or the other person that what they did isn't that bad and that they're just going to have to get used to that, well, the plug never gets put back in.

[Brent]: And I’m never going to trust you then, because you didn't own it.

[Janice]: And especially if they minimize it.

[Brent]: Absolutely

[Janice]: “Oh, that's ridiculous. I can't believe you're upset over that”. But often there-- It’s the situation over and over and over again.

[Brent]: So, first of all, it requires a person owning it. “Yes, I’m so sorry I did this” and repentance, which is “I’m committed to changing. I’ve changed my mind, I’m gonna-- instead of going this direction, I’m gonna turn a corner and go this direction”. Now, that is huge! As we said, if you don't have that, we can't even get started.

[Brent]: And yet, there is a limit to that. What that does-- I always tell people that finds the plug under the bushes in the backyard, okay? Gets the plug back in. But that doesn't really give us any trust, it just gives us a reservoir that will hold trust.

[Brent]: The way I’ve seen this work in every one of these situations is, once the moment of confession or repentance, once we get that plug back in, from that point forward every time there's a trustworthy behavior-- It could be they show up for a counseling appointment, it could be a kind gesture, it could be as simple as “I’ll be home at six” and I roll in at six.

[Brent]: Every time they do one of those gestures, we're going to take a teaspoon of water and throw it in the bathtub. A teaspoon, bathtub. I know that is hard to see-- I’ve just never seen anybody get a cup or a bucket or a garden hose, it's teaspoon after teaspoon after teaspoon. Now, I don't say that to discourage anybody, you know? My prayer is always for the offender, that they simply don't get weary and well doing.

[Brent]: That they-- If they can just keep doing the right thing and never pull that plug again, that bathtub will get full and I would-- And I also say that for the person that's been offended. That if there's a lot of bathtubs, the other person's doing wonderfully, you know? And doing everything just right for 60 days, but they still feel nervous sometimes. They don't think “what's wrong with me? Why can't I get over this?”. No, it's teaspoons in the bathtub. In 60 days you could have maybe the bottom of the tub? You know, kind of just a little bit of-- You know? It's not gonna be full now.

[Janice]: And you also can't shortcut process. So, the fabulous trip or the new car with the bow on the top, that doesn't build trust. It may make you feel better because you gave them something after you heard them, but that doesn't build trust and I think that's confusing for people. It's because I did something great, why don't you trust me? But it is a process.

[Brent]: It is a process. Now, we would not be doing this kind of work if you could not fill up bathtubs with this, okay?

[Janice]: That's right, and we've seen so many stories of hope and reconciliation.

[Brent]: Yes, and so, we would have gotten into another line of work, because we like to be successful in what we're doing.

[Janice]: Because it'd be really depressing if nobody got better.

[Brent]: It would be very depressing if this didn’t work, but I’ve seen people fill up bathtubs with teaspoons, that I did not think they could do it. I’ve heard stories of things where somebody's broken trust at such a crazy high level. I’m sitting there inside going “this is impossible”.

[Brent]: I didn't say that, okay? But I’m like “they're toast, I mean, this is not-- No way” and I’ve seen them do the right thing, I’ve seen them do it for a long enough period of time and usually, if that lasts a longer period of time, the offended person wakes up-- A little bit like you were talking about forgiveness, wakes up and goes “you know what? I don't think about that, I really believe I can trust them”.

[Brent]: And so, it is again, such a powerful thing in life to be able to trust somebody, it's so important. It also shows us why we need to be careful with this.

[Brent]: It is very fragile and we should protect this at all levels, because it is really hard to regain this. But we've seen it work, we've seen it over and over again, it's that little by little and those bathtubs get full and again, it's just not giving up, not giving up hope.

[Janice]: And I always say to offenders, it's never going to be as fast as you want it to be, you're always going to have some times that you're going to go “really!? Do I have to keep doing this over and over again!?” and I always say “yes, you do”. It's going to take the time that it takes and again, there's no shortcuts, but there is hope.

[Brent]: Yeah, and so, the other reason it's different than forgiveness, is forgiveness you don't have to earn, right?

[Brent]: I mean, it's-- God's grace is there immediately when we confess our sins to Him and acknowledge them and so, you don't actually-- We can't earn it, but trust is earned in human relationships. We do have to serve some kind of penance.

[Brent]: And so, when the offenders are running out of gas and struggling with this, I always say “this is part of the price, okay?”. Now, we always have to help them, you know, that one's-- Somebody's not punishing the other one and all those kinds of things and I always tell them “If you can just understand this, how it works and let's work collaboratively”. Because sometimes the offender is doing some things that I think should help, but it's not really what the other person needs and so, in infidelity, we work with them together and we find out from the offended person, “what are things that you need?”, you know? If their partner had been texting this other person and that's how they communicate, well, you better believe the way they're managing their phone is important, you know? And so, we sit down we talk about that and you know, I ask the offender “what are ways that you could offer to manage your phone differently that would help put teaspoons in the bathtub?” and so, sometimes they'll say “well, they can have my password, they can look at it anytime they want to. Matter of fact, if I’m not around, they can look at it. Matter of fact, I almost want them to look at it, you know? So that they're--”

[Janice]: They get more teaspoons that way.

[Brent]: They get more teaspoons that way, you know? And I tell people, I say “you know, if they've offered that and they're in the shower, look at it, you know?” and they just put teaspoons in your bathtub and they didn't even know it.

[Brent]: And so, the more they can work together on that and collaborate on that, the better this process works. As I tell people “You’re not limited to one teaspoon a week”,

[Brent]: Matter of fact, we try to help couples become [Unintelligible] teaspoons– And so, there is a way to collaborate on that. Now, some of the circumstances people are dealing with that are hearing this today. It's not a marriage, it's a-- You know, somebody, a friend or a parent or whatever and there's a little bit of a limit to how they can kind of work together on that. But even if you can say “hey, this is what I need from you”, if the other person's open to that and again, if they've truly confessed and truly repented, they're gonna wanna be open to this. That's a good sign actually.

[Brent]: That they're willing to do the work to prove themselves to you. That is a sign of true repentance and true confession.

[Janice]: And sometimes people will say “but I don't want to give them steps to do it, I don't want to have to come up with those things”. But really, you're helping them in the process, because it's a terrible feeling to go “I repented and you don't trust me and I don't know what I can do. It seems like anything I do doesn't help”. So, having the person that has been offended go “you know what? It really would help if you talk to me on the phone while you were driving to work” or “it would really help if you came consistently-- Came home consistently at the same time”. But we can't mind read, so we need that other person to help give us those steps to know how to build trust.

[Brent]: Absolutely, absolutely. So, well, this is really important stuff.

[Janice]: Well, I think the thing that I will remind everybody one more time, it is a process. Healing can occur in relationships and in our individual lives, but it's a process and a number of years ago when we were reading through the Bible. I was reading Exodus 23 and I came across the story of the children of Israel and God has given them the promised land, which was always confusing to me because if it was the promised land, shouldn't have been free of enemies? But it was full of all the Hittites, Jebusites, all the other -ites that were there and Exodus 23 says, “the Lord says little by little I will drive the enemies out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land. But I won't do it in a single year, because the animals would become too numerous and would overtake you. But little by little I will drive them out”.

[Janice]: So, when we're going through these processes and we think “gosh, shouldn't there just be some big earthquake that happens or something?”. We have to remember that God is in process as well and so, we take the next step and the next step and the next step and with the children of Israel, they had God's strength and power and direction in all of that and so do we. We just take the right steps, until we get to the point where there is true healing in relationships and in our lives.

[Brent]: Yeah, and some might ask “why did God make trust so hard to rebuild?” and I tell folks “You know, we need to learn how to let pain do its work in our life”. We all try to run from pain, we try to medicate pain, we try to get over as fast as we possibly can, but God will allow pain. He didn't cause pain, but he'll allow these situations to be painful, so that we actually get it and we don't do it again and so, I think that's one of the reasons trust takes so long. Is because we ought to be waking up and you know, paying attention to what we did that caused this pain and make sure I don't do that again.

[Brent]: And so, it does keep us healthy and sober in a good place going forward and so--

[Janice]: It's making sure we don't do it again, because it's not healthy for our life.

[Janice]: It's not a performance thing, it really is “this isn't good for you. I don't want you to have this in your life, because it's affecting you” and so, he uses the pain.

[Brent]: Yes, and so, trust that and that there's good that comes out of that. When I’ve seen people really be able to rebuild trust, there's something really strong in them that they hadn't really had before. It really requires them to dig in and build a relationship on deeper roots and deeper foundations and so, do your part. Again, as much as it's up to us, do our part in this. As we go into this Christmas season, whether you're listening to this in Christmas or not, remember that this is why-- Where it started. This is why the Christmas story is so important and God coming to Earth and forgiving us, so that we can forgive others, so that we can live in freedom and live in peace. So, go in peace. Blessings as you go.